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ilovela
February 18th, 2016, 08:58 PM
http://lakingsinsider.com/2016/02/19/mersch-called-up-to-kings-via-hockey-ops/

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mervaldez
February 18th, 2016, 09:06 PM
https://media.giphy.com/media/Wvo6vaUsQa3Di/giphy.gif

Tiranga
February 18th, 2016, 09:10 PM
Why? Inured?

Moog
February 18th, 2016, 09:13 PM
When it rains.......

VCRW
February 18th, 2016, 09:24 PM
https://media1.giphy.com/media/4UzCGXbCViCVq/200.gif

ilovela
February 18th, 2016, 09:35 PM
?@reallisa: Sutter in shut-down mode about Kopitar injury. Know this will surprise no one but at least an attempt was made. In fact, two??


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ilovela
February 18th, 2016, 09:45 PM
Noooooo


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gretzky99
February 18th, 2016, 09:58 PM
Season in the balance

beady eye
February 18th, 2016, 10:21 PM
With the 10th pick in the 2017 draft , The Los Angeles Kings select ,,,,,,,,

KINGS17
February 18th, 2016, 10:27 PM
Like sands through the hourglass...

This season may be the Kings best chance before things start to slowly head south.

Bollocks
February 18th, 2016, 11:37 PM
Well, if he was "just" limping then it might not be that serious. Fingers and toes crossed.

Mondo Blando
February 18th, 2016, 11:47 PM
What are the buy out numbers?

ChilledAgua
February 18th, 2016, 11:56 PM
https://media1.giphy.com/media/4UzCGXbCViCVq/200.gif

He's a BAD man. A VERY bad man.

(That numbskull Charron, that is...put him out in the cornfield)

orpheus
February 19th, 2016, 12:03 AM
He's a BAD man. A VERY bad man.

(That numbskull Charron, that is...put him out in the cornfield)

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/twilightzone/images/8/87/It's_A_Good_Life.JPG/revision/latest?cb=20090818063230

Zombitar
February 19th, 2016, 12:14 AM
...
http://cdn1.theodysseyonline.com/files/2015/10/15/6358053359520279961038545778_Jax%20crying%20over%2 0abel.gif

santiclaws
February 19th, 2016, 12:38 AM
​http://i.imgur.com/coFJ4nP.gif

shoot2scor
February 19th, 2016, 12:42 AM
this team will be lost without him, we can only hope it is minor. He has played some of his best hockey ever recently. i saw a stat that since december (something) he was like 3rd highest point producer in league with Kane and that choker/crybaby up north…...

Lich King
February 19th, 2016, 01:05 AM
Nolan's really going to have to step it up now. :[

xvvvx
February 19th, 2016, 01:15 AM
dont worry we still have our number 1C in carter and the heart and guts of this team lewis......

jdkings24
February 19th, 2016, 04:11 AM
http://web-images.chacha.com/images/lebron-s-funniest-faces672620871-may-17-2012-600x416.jpg

KINGS17
February 19th, 2016, 05:13 AM
What are the buy out numbers?

They're already on Dean's white board in the 2020-21 box.

RockPile
February 19th, 2016, 08:22 AM
http://s8.postimg.org/n71726bpx/scratch.png

GunShow?
February 19th, 2016, 08:25 AM
It's a good thing he's the second line center on this roster.

AllenA07
February 19th, 2016, 08:44 AM
With the 10th pick in the 2017 draft , The Los Angeles Kings select ,,,,,,,,

You mean the Carolina Hurricanes select...

But I'm not feeling the doom and gloom around here. Despite everything I'm not going to think about the draft while my team is in first place in the conference. If the Kings start to drop out of things, I'll worry then.

dannybuoy1
February 19th, 2016, 09:03 AM
Dillman just reported Kopitar is Day to Day.

So, Yay to Yay!

Krussadams
February 19th, 2016, 09:27 AM
Dillman just reported Kopitar is Day to Day.

So, Yay to Yay!


lisa dillman
‏@reallisa
This may not be the detailed medical report that was requested. But here is a small Kopitar update : Considered day to day

https://twitter.com/reallisa/status/700710786298048512

Mulletsave30
February 19th, 2016, 09:43 AM
Keep him out vs. the Preds for safety sake. Live to battle another day.

Mondo Blando
February 19th, 2016, 09:47 AM
You mean the Carolina Hurricanes select...

But I'm not feeling the doom and gloom around here. Despite everything I'm not going to think about the draft while my team is in first place in the conference. If the Kings start to drop out of things, I'll worry then.

The Canes have the Kings 2016 pick.

Pretty sure the joke is that we can at least look forward to that first rounder 14 months from now.

Moog
February 19th, 2016, 09:51 AM
Day to Day Party, Yo!

eskymi
February 19th, 2016, 09:58 AM
Day to Day!!!! Sweet Jesus on a Popsicle stick! I agree to keep him out Saturday vs Nasvhille. I guess we just take our lumps and lose that one 2-0, or 2-1...if he feels better than maybe Feb 23rd vs Calgary or Feb 25th vs Edmonton. That is anywhere from 5-7 days.

Lionheart88
February 19th, 2016, 10:02 AM
Good chance to see what this team looks like without the #1 (http://letsgokings.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1) guy. Bench needs to get back to team game, stop relying on one or two guys. Nashville game is a good test and a chance to rest! I would expect to see him back against Calgary. At least that's what I'm hoping for.
GKG!!!

Ice24
February 19th, 2016, 10:10 AM
https://media1.giphy.com/media/4UzCGXbCViCVq/200.gif

"Just think good thoughts"

Moog
February 19th, 2016, 10:50 AM
Good chance to see what this team looks like without the #1 (http://letsgokings.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1) guy. Bench needs to get back to team game, stop relying on one or two guys. Nashville game is a good test and a chance to rest! I would expect to see him back against Calgary. At least that's what I'm hoping for.
GKG!!!

The 3rd and 4th lines have been MIA since the beginning of the year.
Do you think they will magically start to produce now?

It's a lack of talent, not motivation for the 3rd and 4th lines.
Sure there are a few exceptions on the 3rd and 4th line, but they can't pull all the dead weight.

romad66
February 19th, 2016, 10:50 AM
I'm all for keeping kopi out but can they at least tell us he's perfectly fine and is healthier than **** :(

Lionheart88
February 19th, 2016, 11:06 AM
The 3rd and 4th lines have been MIA since the beginning of the year.
Do you think they will magically start to produce now?

It's a lack of talent, not motivation for the 3rd and 4th lines.
Sure there are a few exceptions on the 3rd and 4th line, but they can't pull all the dead weight.

What are the 3rd/4th lines?

MaxwellSmart
February 19th, 2016, 11:24 AM
https://media.giphy.com/media/x3b1Cd7a7JnaM/giphy.gif

beady eye
February 19th, 2016, 11:32 AM
In Dwight King we trust .

KINGS17
February 19th, 2016, 11:43 AM
Good chance to see what this team looks like without the #1 (http://letsgokings.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1) guy. Bench needs to get back to team game, stop relying on one or two guys. Nashville game is a good test and a chance to rest! I would expect to see him back against Calgary. At least that's what I'm hoping for.
GKG!!!

Better get used to this. You have Kopitar on a contract with a stupid cap hit starting next season. Doughty and Toffoli will follow suit soon, or be gone. The Kings won't be able to afford good depth players with all of the long term contracts with substantial cap hits that Dean has signed recently.

Moog
February 19th, 2016, 11:49 AM
Better get used to this. You have Kopitar on a contract with a stupid cap hit starting next season. Doughty and Toffoli will follow suit soon, or be gone. The Kings won't be able to afford good depth players with all of the long term contracts with substantial cap hits that Dean has signed recently.

Yup. Exactly. Lack of talent on the 3rd and 4th line is going to be a big obstacle for many years. Top loaded contracts/players will produce this scenario.

DRGinLBC
February 19th, 2016, 11:53 AM
http://www.tvovermind.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/titanic.jpg

Kingscup4426
February 19th, 2016, 12:00 PM
well if you dont pay these guys they walk and you are mediocre forever, just like Nashville, always lacking the elite talent to make a serious run in the playoffs. I'd rather pay significantly for proven winners and hope to find young guys to surround them than to let proven winners walk or trade them away for potential proven winners. wouldn't all of you?

No need to rebuild when there is still plenty of talent around, and even though the contracts are big, this is where a re-tool actually comes into play. In the event the big contracts are signed and those players are here, and stay here.

Mondo Blando
February 19th, 2016, 12:14 PM
Better get used to this. You have Kopitar on a contract with a stupid cap hit starting next season. Doughty and Toffoli will follow suit soon, or be gone. The Kings won't be able to afford good depth players with all of the long term contracts with substantial cap hits that Dean has signed recently.

Its actually worse than getting used to "this". It will be like "this" but minus $3.2 millions' worth of other players on the roster to help if Kopitar misses time in the coming seasons.

This is the last of the salad years. Its about to start trending downward.

alan19
February 19th, 2016, 12:21 PM
Its actually worse than getting used to "this". It will be like "this" but minus $3.2 millions' worth of other players on the roster to help if Kopitar misses time in the coming seasons.

This is the last of the salad years. Its about to start trending downward.

If we can get some of the bandwagoners off, maybe the ticket prices will become a little more affordable? Just trying to find a silver lining here...

darby
February 19th, 2016, 12:29 PM
I heard he died. But then Dean went up on the roof at Staples and was all:

https://monstergirl.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/set-used-on-young-frankenstein.jpg?w=490&h=341

He's better now.

Just needs some espresso.

Mondo Blando
February 19th, 2016, 12:45 PM
I heard he died. But then Dean went up on the roof at Staples and was all:

https://monstergirl.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/set-used-on-young-frankenstein.jpg?w=490&h=341

He's better now.

Just needs some espresso.

That explains his irrational fear of fiery hockey...

nki
February 19th, 2016, 12:49 PM
If you have Patrick Kane you can afford a Kopitar slump or injury, the burden here on Kopitar might actually be higher than on Toews

Lich King
February 19th, 2016, 01:03 PM
http://s8.postimg.org/n71726bpx/scratch.png

Lower body injury...fify.

http://www.retrospace.co.nz/assets/resized/sm/upload/h3/lg/j2/pg/monty%20Python%20tis%20but%20a%20scratch-320-640-240-480.jpg

KINGS17
February 19th, 2016, 01:12 PM
well if you dont pay these guys they walk and you are mediocre forever, just like Nashville, always lacking the elite talent to make a serious run in the playoffs. I'd rather pay significantly for proven winners and hope to find young guys to surround them than to let proven winners walk or trade them away for potential proven winners. wouldn't all of you?

No need to rebuild when there is still plenty of talent around, and even though the contracts are big, this is where a re-tool actually comes into play. In the event the big contracts are signed and those players are here, and stay here.

Yes it's always wise to pay big money to forwards that are passing 30 years of age. See: Lacavalier, Vincent

VCRW
February 19th, 2016, 01:17 PM
Is the KOPI watch going to be the next promotional item? Will that face be on the dial? Can I trade a bobble head for one?

jt
February 19th, 2016, 01:21 PM
Yes it's always wise to pay big money to forwards that are passing 30 years of age. See: Lacavalier, Vincent

Can you name a team that's won a cup (or 2) and then traded or let their top player(s) leave as UFA and then won another Cup? Other than the Oilers with Gretzky.

gretzky99
February 19th, 2016, 01:22 PM
It's unquestionably higher on Kopitar than it is Toews. Not even close.

ilovela
February 19th, 2016, 01:25 PM
lisa dillman ‏@reallisa 6m6 minutes ago
We asked to speak w Kopitar but he won't be talking to us today herre in Nashville

rajuabju
February 19th, 2016, 01:36 PM
Good chance to see what this team looks like without the #1 (http://letsgokings.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1) guy. Bench needs to get back to team game, stop relying on one or two guys. Nashville game is a good test and a chance to rest! I would expect to see him back against Calgary. At least that's what I'm hoping for.
GKG!!!

What do you mean "good chance"

For the last 2 months, we've barely been a playoff worthy team.

Without Kopitar and Gaborik, we're gonna be in Canuck territory very quickly.

alan19
February 19th, 2016, 01:38 PM
Can you name a team that's won a cup (or 2) and then traded or let their top player(s) leave as UFA and then won another Cup? Other than the Oilers with Gretzky.

Red Wings Fedorov maybe?

Kingscup4426
February 19th, 2016, 01:45 PM
Yes it's always wise to pay big money to forwards that are passing 30 years of age. See: Lacavalier, Vincent

So you would have been happy trading Kopi at the deadline for prospects that may or may not pan out?

As easy as some might make it out to seem, always making a great deal is anything but easy. Not saying in hindsight there have not been bad deals made, but you just have to make the best decisions you can at the time you get them signed...a bunch of people said Doughty was a mistake when he signed and I am not sure that is the case. You cant win every contract and trade.

Anyone ever play the stock market around here, you are going to have some winners and losers, not everything turns to gold. I would say that DL should have a slight benefit of the doubt given the cups he has brought here, no?

KINGS17
February 19th, 2016, 01:52 PM
So you would have been happy trading Kopi at the deadline for prospects that may or may not pan out?

As easy as some might make it out to seem, always making a great deal is anything but easy. Not saying in hindsight there have not been bad deals made, but you just have to make the best decisions you can at the time you get them signed...a bunch of people said Doughty was a mistake when he signed and I am not sure that is the case. You cant win every contract and trade.

Anyone ever play the stock market around here, you are going to have some winners and losers, not everything turns to gold. I would say that DL should have a slight benefit of the doubt given the cups he has brought here, no?

No, I would have been happy if he looked at the state of the salary cap today, and where it is expected to be in two or three years (the Kings best chances for winning another cup) and not insisted on a contract with an AAV that is only $500,000 less than Toews' deal. The Toews deal was signed at a time when the cap was expected to be at $80M by next season. Obviously, that isn't going to happen. Kopitar had Dean bent over and took full advantage. I'm not blaming Dean, I'm blaming the player. If I was Dean and Kopitar insisted on $80M, yeah I would have moved him, and I wouldn't have waited for the trade deadline. This team will not have the required depth to be legit cup contenders beyond another couple of seasons.

If you have been around here for a while you know there has been no bigger supporter of Dean Lombardi than me.

ilovela
February 19th, 2016, 01:54 PM
I want news dammit

KINGS17
February 19th, 2016, 01:54 PM
Can you name a team that's won a cup (or 2) and then traded or let their top player(s) leave as UFA and then won another Cup? Other than the Oilers with Gretzky.

You answered your own question buddy!! :)

And no way do I think Kopitar should have been allowed to walk as a UFA.

SmytheKing
February 19th, 2016, 01:56 PM
https://media.giphy.com/media/mBFJme8XwXrUY/giphy.gif

...again.

Gargamel33
February 19th, 2016, 01:58 PM
You answered your own question buddy!! :)

And no way do I think Kopitar should have been allowed to walk as a UFA.

We all know what is your opinion...no one cares...move on and find another punching bag. Or even better...don't.

makemelaugh
February 19th, 2016, 01:58 PM
http://cdn.meme.am/instances2/500x/4391443.jpg

Mondo Blando
February 19th, 2016, 02:06 PM
It's unquestionably higher on Kopitar than it is Toews. Not even close.

Unquestionably?

No, Toews means more to Chicago than Kopitar does to LA.

That little "C" on his uniform isn't just a decoration. I know you don't get that, but your comment is just ridiculous.

Kurisu
February 19th, 2016, 02:07 PM
Are we really having this conversation again?

Mondo Blando
February 19th, 2016, 02:12 PM
http://cdn.meme.am/instances2/500x/4391443.jpg

I fear for our collective future when so many put so little effort in understanding the effect that poor present day decisions have.

Folks can stick their heads in the sand, change the narrative, deflect with trumped up tangents, doesn't matter. Starting next year, Kopitar's contract is a burden on this franchise. It will get worse with time, provided that the NHL sticks to a Cap system.

It might be a necessary burden, but it is a burden none the less.

Mondo Blando
February 19th, 2016, 02:13 PM
Red Wings Fedorov maybe?

Jersey made it back to the Finals without Niedermayer, but it took a while.

Mondo Blando
February 19th, 2016, 02:15 PM
We all know what is your opinion...no one cares...move on and find another punching bag. Or even better...don't.

You know, Kings17 posts on all manner of Kings related subjects and threads.

Exactly how many different topics have you posted on?

Mondo Blando
February 19th, 2016, 02:18 PM
Are we really having this conversation again?

Poke a bear, his reaction ain't exactly a surprise.

I was joking about the buy out numbers, so maybe that.got this started again, but Kopitar's contract and how it affects the cap, their team depth, including the Kings ability to cover for him if injured are all important issues for the franchise.

makemelaugh
February 19th, 2016, 02:21 PM
I fear for our collective future when so many put so little effort in understanding the effect that poor present day decisions have.

Folks can stick their heads in the sand, change the narrative, deflect with trumped up tangents, doesn't matter. Starting next year, Kopitar's contract is a burden on this franchise. It will get worse with time, provided that the NHL sticks to a Cap system.

It might be a necessary burden, but it is a burden none the less.

It's not that we don't understand the burden, it's that we realize there's nothing to gain by complaining about it.

SmytheKing
February 19th, 2016, 02:23 PM
Are we really having this conversation again?

Yes. It will always happen. Just ignore it. The same three people will argue the same three points and it will go on for another 20ish pages. Then it might get deleted and one of them will use that as an opportunity to throw a little dig whenever they can about how much effort they put into posting the same thought 30 times in a 100 page thread and the moderators are jerks.

Ice24
February 19th, 2016, 02:30 PM
When did Kopitar sign an 80 million dollar contract?

What in the world is happening to our beloved Kings, they can't win a game, they can't score and now there are 80 million reasons to come unglued?

Kingscup4426
February 19th, 2016, 02:53 PM
No, I would have been happy if he looked at the state of the salary cap today, and where it is expected to be in two or three years (the Kings best chances for winning another cup) and not insisted on a contract with an AAV that is only $500,000 less than Toews' deal. The Toews deal was signed at a time when the cap was expected to be at $80M by next season. Obviously, that isn't going to happen. Kopitar had Dean bent over and took full advantage. I'm not blaming Dean, I'm blaming the player. If I was Dean and Kopitar insisted on $80M, yeah I would have moved him, and I wouldn't have waited for the trade deadline. This team will not have the required depth to be legit cup contenders beyond another couple of seasons.

If you have been around here for a while you know there has been no bigger supporter of Dean Lombardi than me.

I have been around here for a while, and I have also heard the Blackhawks window will be slamming shut because of cap hell several times and several years but they are still competitive year after year because they keep and pay their top talent and find players that are cheaper or just coming up to fill holes, or they trade guys like Saad, and bring back slightly younger talent and utilize them for a few seasons.

DL is a professional and I highly doubt he does not know what he is doing here, he knew he had to keep Kopitar because a big center that plays defense is essential to the system that his guy coaches and the kind of team DL builds. At least if he goes down he did it his way and not trying to find the next Kopitar, when he had him right here.

Even in this thread it should be obvious given the statements that Towes has less pressure to return because of Kane that Kopitar is more valuable to this team then Toews is to Chi, as such you kind of need to pay up.

You cant expect every player to take a discount because they like playing somewhere or because it is good for the franchise. I know I would not, because it is a job a profession, that has a very short life and they all should be looking out for themselves at all times. That is the job of the GM and why it is not easy is because you have key pieces you are not willing to let go of, and it is your job as GM to find pieces to revolve around the cornerstones of the franchise and only move new pieces in when you have them ready to replaces the old.

Ok so if you would have moved him, what would you have gotten for him, how much would another team give up for a guy who would be on their team for 6 months with no further guarantees? and if so what would the kings look like long term with out him? I am guessing not as good.

I just do not agree with addition by subtraction in the case of Kopi...and if you do have the cap space what is the point of having it to spend it? then you are going to go compete with other clubs for a free agent commanding similar money? Why would you when you already have the perfect guy for your team?

Mondo Blando
February 19th, 2016, 03:16 PM
It's not that we don't understand the burden, it's that we realize there's nothing to gain by complaining about it.

Its discussing the ramifications of Kopitar's deal. And they are tenfold, so its fair to expect it to be an issue for the next 8.5 years.

"Complaining" is what some are doing about the subject coming up again.

See the difference?

gretzky99
February 19th, 2016, 03:17 PM
Unquestionably?

No, Toews means more to Chicago than Kopitar does to LA.

That little "C" on his uniform isn't just a decoration. I know you don't get that, but your comment is just ridiculous.

offensively, Kopitar carries a greater burden, without question. the stats prove it. on the ice, the Kings rely on Kopitar more than the Hawks rely on Chicago. it's not a negative to Toews, but he has more to work with. it's just fact. no amount of insults will change the facts.

beady eye
February 19th, 2016, 03:19 PM
so ,,,, when is Kopitar coming back ?

Mondo Blando
February 19th, 2016, 03:29 PM
offensively, Kopitar carries a greater burden, without question. the stats prove it. on the ice, the Kings rely on Kopitar more than the Hawks rely on Chicago. it's not a negative to Toews, but he has more to work with. it's just fact. no amount of insults will change the facts.

Those aren't facts, they are opinions that you need to clarify.

Are you saying Kopitar is more valuable to the Kings as a regular season team? Towards winning a Cup? To the franchise as a whole?

What's the argument here? If it's just that Kopitar has a larger percentage of responsibility to his team's offensive numbers, yeah, that isn't debatable. Clearly Kopitar's offense is more vital to the Kings goal totals, but that is just one aspect of the conversation, right?

I don't think either team should have trouble making the playoffs with either player out, but neither team is favored over the other to win a Cup without their elite center man, so arguing it isn't going to amount to much.

Kingscup4426
February 19th, 2016, 03:30 PM
by Christmas I heard. ;)

KINGS17
February 19th, 2016, 03:37 PM
I have been around here for a while, and I have also heard the Blackhawks window will be slamming shut because of cap hell several times and several years but they are still competitive year after year because they keep and pay their top talent and find players that are cheaper or just coming up to fill holes, or they trade guys like Saad, and bring back slightly younger talent and utilize them for a few seasons.

DL is a professional and I highly doubt he does not know what he is doing here, he knew he had to keep Kopitar because a big center that plays defense is essential to the system that his guy coaches and the kind of team DL builds. At least if he goes down he did it his way and not trying to find the next Kopitar, when he had him right here.

Even in this thread it should be obvious given the statements that Towes has less pressure to return because of Kane that Kopitar is more valuable to this team then Toews is to Chi, as such you kind of need to pay up.

You cant expect every player to take a discount because they like playing somewhere or because it is good for the franchise. I know I would not, because it is a job a profession, that has a very short life and they all should be looking out for themselves at all times. That is the job of the GM and why it is not easy is because you have key pieces you are not willing to let go of, and it is your job as GM to find pieces to revolve around the cornerstones of the franchise and only move new pieces in when you have them ready to replaces the old.

Ok so if you would have moved him, what would you have gotten for him, how much would another team give up for a guy who would be on their team for 6 months with no further guarantees? and if so what would the kings look like long term with out him? I am guessing not as good.

I just do not agree with addition by subtraction in the case of Kopi...and if you do have the cap space what is the point of having it to spend it? then you are going to go compete with other clubs for a free agent commanding similar money? Why would you when you already have the perfect guy for your team?

This is where many of you don't read or comprehend what I am saying. I don't think Toews is worth the money he is getting either. That contract was signed when most GMs in the NHL thought the cap would be at $80M next season. The AAV of the Kopitar deal should have been based on a percentage of a reasonable expectation of what the salary cap will be over the next 3 years, not on Toews contract. Doing that would not have been taking a discount. Obviously, ego of Kopitar or his agent couldn't handle such a reasonable request from Dean.

Lich King
February 19th, 2016, 04:32 PM
Is the KOPI watch going to be the next promotional item? Will that face be on the dial? Can I trade a bobble head for one?

...for the bobble head. DONE!

http://i1372.photobucket.com/albums/ag342/Khellek/KopiWatch_zpsfgqfashf.gif

beady eye
February 19th, 2016, 04:39 PM
I thought Kopi watch was about his injury not his personal life ........... Real wives of Staples Center .

makemelaugh
February 19th, 2016, 04:51 PM
Its discussing the ramifications of Kopitar's deal. And they are tenfold, so its fair to expect it to be an issue for the next 8.5 years.

"Complaining" is what some are doing about the subject coming up again.

See the difference?

No, I don't. Are you complaining about people complaining because others were complaining, or are you just discussing the complaining?
I appreciate your passion and your knowledge, seriously, but you know good and well that we've all heard this before, and before that, and before that.

gescom
February 19th, 2016, 04:56 PM
Patrick Kane went down about this time last season.

Mondo Blando
February 19th, 2016, 05:04 PM
No, I don't. Are you complaining about people complaining because others were complaining, or are you just discussing the complaining?
I appreciate your passion and your knowledge, seriously, but you know good and well that we've all heard this before, and before that, and before that.

I am not complaining about anything. I am discussing, which triggers a complaining reflex in others.

See, I get that there are those that don't want to hear certain things, or are tired of certain subjects. That's cool, they don't have to participate.

But once they DO decide to enter the conversation, cheap meme-ing, lousy arguments and nationalism at the expense of reason all become fair game for comment.

xvvvx
February 19th, 2016, 05:25 PM
no new news. anything serious?

gretzky99
February 19th, 2016, 05:29 PM
Those aren't facts, they are opinions that you need to clarify.

Are you saying Kopitar is more valuable to the Kings as a regular season team? Towards winning a Cup? To the franchise as a whole?

What's the argument here? If it's just that Kopitar has a larger percentage of responsibility to his team's offensive numbers, yeah, that isn't debatable. Clearly Kopitar's offense is more vital to the Kings goal totals, but that is just one aspect of the conversation, right?

I don't think either team should have trouble making the playoffs with either player out, but neither team is favored over the other to win a Cup without their elite center man, so arguing it isn't going to amount to much.

this is the original quote...

"If you have Patrick Kane you can afford a Kopitar slump or injury, the burden here on Kopitar might actually be higher than on Toews"

my comment was simply agreeing that Kopitar carries more burden than Toews does. he plays more minutes, he accounts for more of his team's scoring, etc. not that he's better, but that the Kings rely on Kopitar more than the Hawks have to rely on Toews. i'm not even suggesting that Toews couldn't do it.

Toews plays on a team where they have arguably the best line in hockey this year and he isn't even on it. that takes quite a bit of the burden away, don't you think?

KINGS17
February 19th, 2016, 05:33 PM
Patrick Kane went down about this time last season.

Just look at all that cap space Dean has to work with now.

Mondo Blando
February 19th, 2016, 05:38 PM
this is the original quote...

"If you have Patrick Kane you can afford a Kopitar slump or injury, the burden here on Kopitar might actually be higher than on Toews"

my comment was simply agreeing that Kopitar carries more burden than Toews does. he plays more minutes, he accounts for more of his team's scoring, etc. not that he's better, but that the Kings rely on Kopitar more than the Hawks have to rely on Toews. i'm not even suggesting that Toews couldn't do it.

Toews plays on a team where they have arguably the best line in hockey this year and he isn't even on it. that takes quite a bit of the burden away, don't you think?

Sure, let's agree to that. I don't think "unquestionable" is a fair description though.

Ice24
February 19th, 2016, 05:39 PM
Patrick Kane went down about this time last season.


Its all scripted and in the plan.

Mondo Blando
February 19th, 2016, 05:42 PM
no new news. anything serious?

Hopefully not. If it is a groin issue that could be a big problem. A laboring Kopitar, no Gaborik, combined with a laboring Carter and laboring Quick could see 4th place in the Pacific get here awfully fast.

Birdman
February 19th, 2016, 05:43 PM
Hopefully not. If it is a groin issue that could be a big problem. A laboring Kopitar, no Gaborik, combined with a laboring Carter and laboring Quick could see 4th place in the Pacific get here awfully fast.

The ****ing long "Grammy" road trip strikes again.

Ice24
February 19th, 2016, 05:45 PM
The ****ing long "Grammy" road trip strikes again.

Move the Grammy's to the Forum

Ice24
February 19th, 2016, 05:46 PM
Hopefully not. If it is a groin issue that could be a big problem. A laboring Kopitar, no Gaborik, combined with a laboring Carter and laboring Quick could see 4th place in the Pacific get here awfully fast.

Having someone massaging your groin, sometimes is a big problem.

nosoupforyou
February 19th, 2016, 05:56 PM
he's going to be fine. a little dinged up.

Mondo Blando
February 19th, 2016, 05:58 PM
he's going to be fine. a little dinged up.

Better to have him rest for a few games than try to play through it.

jgs
February 19th, 2016, 06:03 PM
Man the Ducks and Sharks have closed in pretty fast. Kings now have no margin for error. Every point is critical now for the Kings.

Helvetica
February 19th, 2016, 06:06 PM
I think somebody mentioned him really favoring his leg, and not being able to put weight on it while coming off the ice. i dont remember who said it, but it was in the GDT. To me, that doesn't seem like a groin. It was also said on LAKI that he was with the team at practice today getting work done. So i assume that rules out anything being broken. My assumption is either a knee (minor tweak or he'd be getting MRI's), or perhaps he took a puck or slash on the leg that resulted in some sort of severe contusion or bone bruise.

The fact he's with the team, getting work done at practice is definitely encouraging though. I think he's out a handful of games at most.

nosoupforyou
February 19th, 2016, 06:26 PM
Better to have him rest for a few games than try to play through it.

totally agreed. if it is a groin, playing through it could be devastating.

Ice24
February 19th, 2016, 06:42 PM
Man the Ducks and Sharks have closed in pretty fast. Kings now have no margin for error. Every point is critical now for the Kings.

they have a very good chance to stay in 3rd

Birdman
February 19th, 2016, 07:23 PM
/Begin Public Service Announcement:

So I'd like to remind everyone that if you disagree with somebody's opinion, then attack the post and the opinion, and not the poster.

If you begin fuming out of the ears every time a few posters roll into a thread with their soapbox, jump on top, and start on the same diatribe against the same player again, and again, and again, and you can't prevent yourself from attacking them personally, then please put that user on ignore.

If you are one of those posters that's climbing on the soap box and you can't defend your position without insulting certain members directly, then you need to put those members on ignore.

Mostly, we want everyone to have a cordial and healthy discussion about a topic. What we don't want is them turning into an insult fest, and then someone has to come in here and clean up the mess after handing out a bunch of warnings and infractions.

If you don't have a clue about what I'm talking about, then please review the rules here:

http://letsgokings.com/faq.php

/end Public Service Announcement

ilovela
February 19th, 2016, 07:36 PM
?@ReignInsider: No Michael Mersch out for @ontarioreign warmups?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

VCRW
February 19th, 2016, 08:28 PM
?@ReignInsider: No Michael Mersch out for @ontarioreign warmups?


Mersch on a plane to Nashville.

http://lakingsinsider.com/2016/02/19/mersch-called-up-to-kings-via-hockey-ops/

dannybuoy1
February 19th, 2016, 08:55 PM
Having someone massaging your groin, sometimes is a big problem.

Only if you think it moved.

kIngsX
February 19th, 2016, 09:41 PM
Patrick Kane went down about this time last season.
Here is something all the doomsayers need to think about

rcc
February 19th, 2016, 10:33 PM
Move the Grammy's to the Forum

take the grammys out back and put 'em out of their misery.

King'sPawn
February 20th, 2016, 12:19 AM
​http://i.imgur.com/coFJ4nP.gif

Is that a video of Sutter as a toddler?

orpheus
February 20th, 2016, 12:25 AM
*sigh* The third thing this road trip needs resemble one of my family trips more is ending with a divorce. We already have the losses and possible groin injury. mhihi: :manybeers:

ChilledAgua
February 20th, 2016, 12:27 AM
Is that a video of Sutter as a toddler?

Park and ride at age 4...

King'sPawn
February 20th, 2016, 12:32 AM
I fear for our collective future when so many put so little effort in understanding the effect that poor present day decisions have.

Folks can stick their heads in the sand, change the narrative, deflect with trumped up tangents, doesn't matter. Starting next year, Kopitar's contract is a burden on this franchise. It will get worse with time, provided that the NHL sticks to a Cap system.

It might be a necessary burden, but it is a burden none the less.

On a serious note... I don't completely disagree with this.

However, I've said it numerous times before. Kopitar has the durability, offensive burden on his team and defensive ability on his team that simply surpasses all other players in the league. I'm not saying he's superior, but his impact on the team in all facets outweighs what others bring. Toews may bring the leadership and comparable defensive ability, but he doesn't lead his team offensively like Kopitar does. Kane is superior to Kopitar offensively, but doesn't have the defensive responsibility that Kopitar does. Bergeron is pretty comparable to Kopitar at a much lower cap hit, but he lacks the durability AND the offensive leadership on a consistent basis that Kopitar has.

A long-term cap hit on any player Kopitar's age is more of a risk than a burden. Kopitar doesn't play the wear-you-down style of play like Brown or Lucic, or even Richards, where his style of play will cut his effectiveness. I'm not comparing careers, but in terms of how he uses his body, Kopitar is similar to Jagr. He may very well be a useful player long term. That's the risk the Kings HAD to take to keep their #1 (http://letsgokings.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1) franchise center, who has led them in scoring every year since his second year, while playing all roles, and contributing to two cups.

So I may be arguing semantics, but it's more of a necessary and calculated risk than an inevitable burden.

gretzky99
February 20th, 2016, 10:29 AM
Mersch call up means no Kopitar today I'm guessing.

King'sPawn
February 20th, 2016, 11:07 AM
Mersch call up means no Kopitar today I'm guessing.

Not necessarily. Gaborik was put on IR and nobody was called up to replace him.

gretzky99
February 20th, 2016, 11:21 AM
No Kopitar at morning skate

jt
February 20th, 2016, 12:25 PM
Red Wings Fedorov maybe?

Ok, but he turned 34 in 03-04 so I'd put him in a different category than Kopi.


You answered your own question buddy!! :)

Nice try...I'm talking about modern times. I bet the Silver Seven probably did it too......


This is where many of you don't read or comprehend what I am saying. I don't think Toews is worth the money he is getting either. That contract was signed when most GMs in the NHL thought the cap would be at $80M next season. The AAV of the Kopitar deal should have been based on a percentage of a reasonable expectation of what the salary cap will be over the next 3 years, not on Toews contract. Doing that would not have been taking a discount. Obviously, ego of Kopitar or his agent couldn't handle such a reasonable request from Dean.

I get what you're saying about Kopi being greedy and I haven't reached my own conclusion on that yet. But would you really have traded him? And if so, what the hell do you think you could have gotten?

AngelEyes
February 20th, 2016, 12:43 PM
This is where many of you don't read or comprehend what I am saying. I don't think Toews is worth the money he is getting either. That contract was signed when most GMs in the NHL thought the cap would be at $80M next season. The AAV of the Kopitar deal should have been based on a percentage of a reasonable expectation of what the salary cap will be over the next 3 years, not on Toews contract. Doing that would not have been taking a discount. Obviously, ego of Kopitar or his agent couldn't handle such a reasonable request from Dean.

Don't forget that the Players' Association might have exerted their own pressure on Kopitar to maximize the money and term. So while King fans might think that his utmost responsibility is to the King team and fans, the view of the player might be different.

AngelEyes
February 20th, 2016, 12:44 PM
Better get used to this. You have Kopitar on a contract with a stupid cap hit starting next season. Doughty and Toffoli will follow suit soon, or be gone. The Kings won't be able to afford good depth players with all of the long term contracts with substantial cap hits that Dean has signed recently.

One could always move to the power of the duck side.

Kubrick
February 20th, 2016, 12:50 PM
Ok, but he turned 34 in 03-04 so I'd put him in a different category than Kopi.



Nice try...I'm talking about modern times. I bet the Silver Seven probably did it too......



I get what you're saying about Kopi being greedy and I haven't reached my own conclusion on that yet. But would you really have traded him? And if so, what the hell do you think you could have gotten?

No shot at the Stanley Cup for the foreseeable future.

hokiecat
February 20th, 2016, 01:32 PM
No shot at the Stanley Cup for the foreseeable future.

Which would have made the Lucic trade incredibly stupid. You don't go all in on 15-16 and then trade your #1 (http://letsgokings.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1) center midway through the season. The Kings are in a win-now mode. Personally I prefer it to the suck now mode of the aughts.

MacNasty
February 20th, 2016, 02:09 PM
Here's hoping we see Mersch paired with Vinny. Third line with a talented, creative center beside him is the best way to utilize MMs strengths down the stretch.

beady eye
February 20th, 2016, 02:17 PM
I like how the Kings are advertising " he's back !"

Mondo Blando
February 20th, 2016, 02:20 PM
On a serious note... I don't completely disagree with this.

However, I've said it numerous times before. Kopitar has the durability, offensive burden on his team and defensive ability on his team that simply surpasses all other players in the league. I'm not saying he's superior, but his impact on the team in all facets outweighs what others bring. Toews may bring the leadership and comparable defensive ability, but he doesn't lead his team offensively like Kopitar does. Kane is superior to Kopitar offensively, but doesn't have the defensive responsibility that Kopitar does. Bergeron is pretty comparable to Kopitar at a much lower cap hit, but he lacks the durability AND the offensive leadership on a consistent basis that Kopitar has.

A long-term cap hit on any player Kopitar's age is more of a risk than a burden. Kopitar doesn't play the wear-you-down style of play like Brown or Lucic, or even Richards, where his style of play will cut his effectiveness. I'm not comparing careers, but in terms of how he uses his body, Kopitar is similar to Jagr. He may very well be a useful player long term. That's the risk the Kings HAD to take to keep their #1 (http://letsgokings.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1) franchise center, who has led them in scoring every year since his second year, while playing all roles, and contributing to two cups.

So I may be arguing semantics, but it's more of a necessary and calculated risk than an inevitable burden.

Kopitar is an outstanding player, crucial to the Kings chances at being a Cup Contender. That, in a vacuum, isn't in dispute. My concerns are the ramifications of his contract.

On one hand you have retained the services of one of the top 5 centers in the game. He will allow you to maintain your course, your system, and not require a major shift to accommodate players that don't fit into that system as well.

On the other hand it gets awfully dodgy. In order to maintain, you have to pay him an exorbitant amount of money for a few years that his likely won't be worth the return. You aren't improving by signing Kopitar, you are at a status quo.

By paying a higher salary - a much higher salary - you are limiting your ability to add to your roster and retain those with expiring contracts.

By paying a premier player this kind of money in his late 20's while in a Cup window, you are putting pressure on your team to maintain that window. You will need quality players, and since you can't sign them cheap, you will.have to trade for those with promise on affordable deals, which will drain the developmental system and draft picks.

All that has already happened as the team maintains its current status - its not conjecture. It will get ramped up this upcoming summer with $3.2 million less on the table.

I know some don't want to think to much about what is just around the corner. Maybe they don't have the experience or time with the game to see how things work in the longterm, and the lure of striking while the iron is hot is strong, but the cost of keeping Kopitar and the current aging core is going to result in a huge gap of available, affordable talent from within.

I see one more year of Cup contention, then a slow slide back into the black hole before a full on rebuild is needed. - all in the first six years of Anze's deal. Its an anchor. So no, I don't think his deal is worth it. My.preference would have been to trust the process that earned your first Cups, deal him, maintain picks and prospects, keep the remaining core, and shoot for a revamped approach back to the top two seasons from now.

I don't think the Kings are going to be doing much contending with Kopitar's deal. Of course they could make some other deals to remove the other longterm expensive contracts that might make another run a few years down the road possible, but frankly is Mersch, Kempe, Gravel and Mistele are your only internal hopes, man, its going to get ugly really soon.

Mondo Blando
February 20th, 2016, 02:21 PM
No shot at the Stanley Cup for the foreseeable future.

Not necessarily. And who says you have a shot with him AND $3.2 million less of cap space?

Mondo Blando
February 20th, 2016, 02:25 PM
Which would have made the Lucic trade incredibly stupid. You don't go all in on 15-16 and then trade your #1 (http://letsgokings.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1) center midway through the season. The Kings are in a win-now mode. Personally I prefer it to the suck now mode of the aughts.

Just because you made a couple of mistakes doesn't mean that you must follow the same path.

And who is to say that you only have two options?

Kubrick
February 20th, 2016, 02:50 PM
Not necessarily. And who says you have a shot with him AND $3.2 million less of cap space?

Swap out Kopitar for any of the young 2nd tier Centers that were bandied about as a possible trade return prior to the start of this season and the Kings aren't fighting off the Ducks for 1st in the Pacific, they're fighting with Flames for 5th. From November on, Kopitar has been on a Hart-discussion worthy tear. It's a shame none of the other forwards on the team decided to follow his lead. So this season, certainly, there is no Stanley Cup discussion without Kopitar. Beyond this season, who knows?

gretzky99
February 20th, 2016, 02:57 PM
Kopitar is an outstanding player, crucial to the Kings chances at being a Cup Contender. That, in a vacuum, isn't in dispute. My concerns are the ramifications of his contract.

On one hand you have retained the services of one of the top 5 centers in the game. He will allow you to maintain your course, your system, and not require a major shift to accommodate players that don't fit into that system as well.

On the other hand it gets awfully dodgy. In order to maintain, you have to pay him an exorbitant amount of money for a few years that his likely won't be worth the return. You aren't improving by signing Kopitar, you are at a status quo.

By paying a higher salary - a much higher salary - you are limiting your ability to add to your roster and retain those with expiring contracts.

By paying a premier player this kind of money in his late 20's while in a Cup window, you are putting pressure on your team to maintain that window. You will need quality players, and since you can't sign them cheap, you will.have to trade for those with promise on affordable deals, which will drain the developmental system and draft picks.

All that has already happened as the team maintains its current status - its not conjecture. It will get ramped up this upcoming summer with $3.2 million less on the table.

I know some don't want to think to much about what is just around the corner. Maybe they don't have the experience or time with the game to see how things work in the longterm, and the lure of striking while the iron is hot is strong, but the cost of keeping Kopitar and the current aging core is going to result in a huge gap of available, affordable talent from within.

I see one more year of Cup contention, then a slow slide back into the black hole before a full on rebuild is needed. - all in the first six years of Anze's deal. Its an anchor. So no, I don't think his deal is worth it. My.preference would have been to trust the process that earned your first Cups, deal him, maintain picks and prospects, keep the remaining core, and shoot for a revamped approach back to the top two seasons from now.

I don't think the Kings are going to be doing much contending with Kopitar's deal. Of course they could make some other deals to remove the other longterm expensive contracts that might make another run a few years down the road possible, but frankly is Mersch, Kempe, Gravel and Mistele are your only internal hopes, man, its going to get ugly really soon.

the Kopitar contract is going to force DL's hand. he's going to have to make some tough choices that he hasn't had to make up until now.

with where the cap is, $10M is a lot, but it's not a cap killer. having a $5.8M 3rd line wing kills a cap. or a $4.8M top line guy with 12 goals kills the cap. DL won't be able to pay for guys that aren't producing. that's the simple fact starting next year. the Kings are going to need major contributions from underpaid guys and he needs to move out guys that aren't producing.

as the Hawks have shown, you can pay your core market rate and still be real contenders. you just have to get some major contributions from young guys, vets that take cheap deals and you have to stay healthy.

i don't agree that a core of Kopitar, Carter, Lucic, Toffoli, Doughty, Muzzin and Quick can't win more Cups. they definitely can. they have to stay healthy and DL has to get some production from young guys and cheap vets. but that core is as good as any core in the league.

KINGS17
February 20th, 2016, 02:57 PM
One could always move to the power of the duck side.

...and why would someone that's been a Kings fan for 40+ years do that?

For some fandom is riding jocks, for others it's looking at the moves the GM makes.

KINGS17
February 20th, 2016, 03:04 PM
the Kopitar contract is going to force DL's hand. he's going to have to make some tough choices that he hasn't had to make up until now.

with where the cap is, $10M is a lot, but it's not a cap killer. having a $5.8M 3rd line wing kills a cap. or a $4.8M top line guy with 12 goals kills the cap. DL won't be able to pay for guys that aren't producing. that's the simple fact starting next year. the Kings are going to need major contributions from underpaid guys and he needs to move out guys that aren't producing.

as the Hawks have shown, you can pay your core market rate and still be real contenders. you just have to get some major contributions from young guys, vets that take cheap deals and you have to stay healthy.

i don't agree that a core of Kopitar, Carter, Lucic, Toffoli, Doughty, Muzzin and Quick can't win more Cups. they definitely can. they have to stay healthy and DL has to get some production from young guys and cheap vets. but that core is as good as any core in the league.

It will be interesting to see what Dean will offer Lucic. My guess is it won't be enough. After seeing what Kopitar signed for, why would Lucic take less than 7 or 8 years, and around $50M. Kopitar set the new standard for the Kings. All salaries of top players re-negotiating deals will base their asking price off of his deal. Expect Doughty to ask for $10M+ AAV, and expect Toffoli to ask for $6M+ AAV on their next deals. Had Kopitar assessed the market differently and only taking an AAV of $8.5M or a little less as you had been suggesting at the start of negotiations Dean might have had a leg to stand on with the other players. Kopitar and his agent chopped that leg off.

KINGS17
February 20th, 2016, 03:05 PM
Swap out Kopitar for any of the young 2nd tier Centers that were bandied about as a possible trade return prior to the start of this season and the Kings aren't fighting off the Ducks for 1st in the Pacific, they're fighting with Flames for 5th. From November on, Kopitar has been on a Hart-discussion worthy tear. It's a shame none of the other forwards on the team decided to follow his lead. So this season, certainly, there is no Stanley Cup discussion without Kopitar. Beyond this season, who knows?

Uh no, just no. Not even close.

KINGS17
February 20th, 2016, 03:08 PM
I get what you're saying about Kopi being greedy and I haven't reached my own conclusion on that yet. But would you really have traded him? And if so, what the hell do you think you could have gotten?

Kind of water under the bridge now, but I posted quite a few possibilities in the summer and early fall. No doubt the Kings would have had to change their style a bit. I think an abosulute necessity in any deal would have had to have been a 1st round pick and a young 2C on the cusp of maybe becoming a 1C someday.

jt
February 20th, 2016, 03:59 PM
Kind of water under the bridge now, but I posted quite a few possibilities in the summer and early fall. No doubt the Kings would have had to change their style a bit. I think an abosulute necessity in any deal would have had to have been a 1st round pick and a young 2C on the cusp of maybe becoming a 1C someday.

I didn't read those posts so can you enlighten me now? Who are some 2Cs you think DLCOULD have acquired who would have made the Kings Cup contenders?

Kubrick
February 20th, 2016, 05:27 PM
Uh no, just no. Not even close.

Ok, who's in your Hart discussion?

VCRW
February 20th, 2016, 05:35 PM
Ok, who's in your Hart discussion?

Kane, Holtby, Benn and Pavelski (leads the league in game winning goals) would be more apt to be finalists.

Kubrick
February 20th, 2016, 06:08 PM
Kane, Holtby, Benn and Pavelski (leads the league in game winning goals) would be more apt to be finalists.

Kopitar does more heavy lifting than both of those players and as such, he's more valuable to his team than both. He plays more minutes, carries more of the offensive burden and he's better defensively.

To reiterate, I'm speaking about Kopitar's play since November and I'm not saying he deserves the Hart. I'm saying he belongs in the discussion.

VCRW
February 20th, 2016, 06:21 PM
Kopitar does more heavy lifting than both of those players and as such, he's more valuable to his team than both. He plays more minutes, carries more of the offensive burden and he's better defensively.

To reiterate, I'm speaking about Kopitar's play since November and I'm not saying he deserves the Hart. I'm saying he belongs in the discussion.

I would put Kuznetsov in the discussion as well. Each of the players I have mentioned possess their own special skillset and a good case could be argued for any of them. Considering Kopitar more valuable for his particular skills seems a bit hometown biased. If Kane maintains his pace, there will be no need for further discussion.

Mondo Blando
February 20th, 2016, 06:43 PM
Ok, who's in your Hart discussion?

Doughty has been this teams most valuable player, and it ain't even close.

Kane and Holtby have two of the spots nailed down, and there are a lot of options ahead of Kopitar.

The dude is a hell of a player, but this place seems to have some sort of obsession with over-rating him.

KINGS17
February 20th, 2016, 06:50 PM
Kopitar does more heavy lifting than both of those players and as such, he's more valuable to his team than both. He plays more minutes, carries more of the offensive burden and he's better defensively.

To reiterate, I'm speaking about Kopitar's play since November and I'm not saying he deserves the Hart. I'm saying he belongs in the discussion.

Since he didn't start until well into November, he doesn't belong in the discussion at this time. Kane is the clear cut winner this season. I agree with VCRW. Holtby and Benn are ahead of Kopitar as well. Kopitar has a legit shot at the Selke this year though.

As Mondo stated, Doughty is the best player on the Kings anyway.

gretzky99
February 20th, 2016, 06:53 PM
Kopitar has been a top 5 player in the league since Christmas. But his bad start doesn't put him close to Hart range.

As long as the Kings play this style we won't see a Hart trophy let alone a nomination. Too many other guys put up big numbers in offensive systems.

Only one trophy matters.

KINGS17
February 20th, 2016, 07:00 PM
I didn't read those posts so can you enlighten me now? Who are some 2Cs you think DLCOULD have acquired who would have made the Kings Cup contenders?

I like Johanssen's game, but not his attitude. Value-wise Johanssen and a 1st round pick would be fair. Montreal would have been another possibility with Galchenyuk and a 1st round pick, or maybe Galchenyuk, Weiss, and a 1st.

A team like Nashville (pre-Schenn deal), I would have liked something around Roman Josi or Filip Forsberg.

Obviously there would have been a lot of moving parts in any Kopitar deal, and possibly even a second deal using the assets acquired in the first deal involving Kopitar. We'll never know now.

Kubrick
February 20th, 2016, 07:05 PM
Since he didn't start until well into November, he doesn't belong in the discussion at this time. Kane is the clear cut winner this season. I agree with VCRW. Holtby and Benn are ahead of Kopitar as well. Kopitar has a legit shot at the Selke this year though.

Since Nov. 1 -
Kopitar: 47gp 14g 34a 48 points - The Kings as a team have scored 131 goals over that time span. Kopitar was involved in 37% of all goals scored. The #2 (http://letsgokings.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=2) player on the team over that time span was Toffoli with 33 points (15g 18a). Kopitar has outscored Toffoli by 45%

Jaime Benn: 48gp 21g 28a 49 points - Stars have scored 151 goals over that time span. Benn was involved in 32% of all goals scored. The #2 (http://letsgokings.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=2) player on the team over that time span Tyler Seguin 49 points (26g 23a)

There's no one in the world that will claim Benn is a better defender than Kopitar. So you've got nearly equivalent offense production, while Kopitar carried a far bigger burden in the team's offense and Kopitar is a far superior defender. How exactly is Benn more valuable than Kopitar again?

KINGS17
February 20th, 2016, 07:08 PM
Since Nov. 1 -
Kopitar: 47gp 14g 34a 48 points - The Kings as a team have scored 131 goals over that time span. Kopitar was involved in 37% of all goals scored. The #2 (http://letsgokings.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=2) player on the team over that time span was Toffoli with 33 points (15g 18a). Kopitar has outscored Toffoli by 45%

Jaime Benn: 48gp 21g 28a 49 points - Stars have scored 151 goals over that time span. Benn was involved in 32% of all goals scored. The #2 (http://letsgokings.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=2) player on the team over that time span Tyler Seguin 49 points (26g 23a)

There's no one in the world that will claim Benn is a better defender than Kopitar. So you've got nearly equivalent offense production, while Kopitar carried a far bigger burden in the team's offense and Kopitar is a far superior defender. How exactly is Benn more valuable than Kopitar again?

Goals >>> Asssists, sorry.

VCRW
February 20th, 2016, 07:23 PM
Since Nov. 1 -
Kopitar: 47gp 14g 34a 48 points - The Kings as a team have scored 131 goals over that time span. Kopitar was involved in 37% of all goals scored. The #2 (http://letsgokings.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=2) player on the team over that time span was Toffoli with 33 points (15g 18a). Kopitar has outscored Toffoli by 45%

Jaime Benn: 48gp 21g 28a 49 points - Stars have scored 151 goals over that time span. Benn was involved in 32% of all goals scored. The #2 (http://letsgokings.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=2) player on the team over that time span Tyler Seguin 49 points (26g 23a)

There's no one in the world that will claim Benn is a better defender than Kopitar. So you've got nearly equivalent offense production, while Kopitar carried a far bigger burden in the team's offense and Kopitar is a far superior defender. How exactly is Benn more valuable than Kopitar again?

Benn has 15 more points on the season than Kopitar. Many more goals with 30 and more assists with 36. The power play stats are ridiculously lopsided toward Benn. Dallas has a better record than the Kings. Which player has contributed more to winning?

Kubrick
February 20th, 2016, 07:28 PM
Goals >>> Asssists, sorry.

Over the past 16 seasons, the Rocket Richard winner has won the Hart 4 times.
Over the past 16 seasons, the Art Ross winner has won the Hart 9 times.

xvvvx
February 20th, 2016, 07:28 PM
benn w/ seguin >>kopitar
kopitar>>> benn

Kubrick
February 20th, 2016, 07:29 PM
Benn has 15 more points on the season than Kopitar. Many more goals with 30 and more assists with 36. The power play stats are ridiculously lopsided toward Benn. Dallas has a better record than the Kings. Which player has contributed more to winning?

Over the season, Benn. Over the time period where I said Kopitar deserves to be in the DISCUSSION, Kopitar.

VCRW
February 20th, 2016, 07:31 PM
Over the season, Benn. Over the time period where I said Kopitar deserves to be in the DISCUSSION, Kopitar.

Season is all that counts. Wins are all that matters. Benn also wears the C for his team.

Kubrick
February 20th, 2016, 07:36 PM
Doughty has been this teams most valuable player, and it ain't even close.

Kane and Holtby have two of the spots nailed down, and there are a lot of options ahead of Kopitar.

The dude is a hell of a player, but this place seems to have some sort of obsession with over-rating him.

Actually it is close. This season it's closer than at any point over the past 5 or 6 seasons. Kopitar has a rightful claim on the #1 (http://letsgokings.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1) Center in the West this season and you're saying it's not even debatable that he's been the team's most valuable player. Balderdash. Doughty is having another great year but his overall impact is not quantifiably greater than Kopitar's.

Mondo Blando
February 20th, 2016, 07:49 PM
Actually it is close. This season it's closer than at any point over the past 5 or 6 seasons. Kopitar has a rightful claim on the #1 (http://letsgokings.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1) Center in the West this season and you're saying it's not even debatable that he's been the team's most valuable player. Balderdash. Doughty is having another great year but his overall impact is not quantifiably greater than Kopitar's.

Wow, I couldn't possibly disagree more.

On one hand, the best defenseman in the world playing 50% of the game, on the other, a terrific center who took the first 15-20 games off.

Its not even close.

KINGS17
February 20th, 2016, 08:22 PM
Over the past 16 seasons, the Rocket Richard winner has won the Hart 4 times.
Over the past 16 seasons, the Art Ross winner has won the Hart 9 times.

When has Kopitar even been within hand-grenade distance of an Art Ross trophy?

There is no conversation when it comes to the Hart Trophy this season. Patrick Kane, that's all that needs to be said on the subject.

Lionheart88
February 21st, 2016, 02:16 AM
Bet Jackman wishes he never got called up. Besides that played decent enoug. Big heavy guy, black ace?

hokiecat
February 21st, 2016, 02:46 AM
Just because you made a couple of mistakes doesn't mean that you must follow the same path.

And who is to say that you only have two options?

Three options: win now, rebuild to win later, or never commit and never win.

It's been crystal clear that Dean is mortgaging the future to win now. The farm is devoid of top talent and we have no first round picks. There is not even a goalie prospect in the system. I'm going to enjoy the ride for the new few years and we'll see what happens.

Bollocks
February 21st, 2016, 02:56 AM
Doughty has been this teams most valuable player, and it ain't even close.

Kane and Holtby have two of the spots nailed down, and there are a lot of options ahead of Kopitar.

The dude is a hell of a player, but this place seems to have some sort of obsession with over-rating him.

AGAIN with the "it's not even close"?

Dude, your whole life seems to rotate around frickin' hyperboles. Get your s*** together, less and less people take you seriously.

F****** pathetic.

Gargamel33
February 21st, 2016, 06:36 AM
AGAIN with the "it's not even close"?

Dude, your whole life seems to rotate around frickin' hyperboles. Get your s*** together, less and less people take you seriously.

F****** pathetic.

Not less and less. There is no one that takes him seriously except KING17 but i think they are related. I can't say anything more since mod already gave me a warning to be polite, because i could hurt kids feelings.

KINGS17
February 21st, 2016, 09:57 AM
Three options: win now, rebuild to win later, or never commit and never win.

It's been crystal clear that Dean is mortgaging the future to win now. The farm is devoid of top talent and we have no first round picks. There is not even a goalie prospect in the system. I'm going to enjoy the ride for the new few years and we'll see what happens.

I think this is the essence of the debate. Is the ride really going to last a few more years?


"Trade a player a year too early rather than a year too late." - Branch Rickey

KINGS17
February 21st, 2016, 10:06 AM
AGAIN with the "it's not even close"?

Dude, your whole life seems to rotate around frickin' hyperboles. Get your s*** together, less and less people take you seriously.

F****** pathetic.

It's not really close. Kopitar has been a great 1C for the Kings once the season got into mid-November. 1C is a very important position, but Doughty plays a slightly more important role, does it at a level that is arguably at the #1 (http://letsgokings.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1) player in the world at his position, and is far more consistent than Kopitar. If one of the two had to be traded, the decision is a pretty easy one.

A couple of you take any criticism of Kopitar as people saying he is a complete stiff. That isn't the case. For the money Kopitar is paid, he needs to perform at a very high level almost all of the time. This isn't going to get better for him as the salary cap is not going to go up much and he is sucking up more cap space than he should. By doing so he limits Dean's ability to surround him with higher quality players, so Kopitar is going to have to carry the load himself. You can't get PAID, and not accept the responsibility.

I seldom see any opposing viewpoint that logically states why Kopitar warrants a $10M AAV. You're a good poster. The other guy is just childish and only posts on one topic with irrational baloney.

anjae11eden
February 21st, 2016, 10:13 AM
Not less and less. There is no one that takes him seriously except KING17 but i think they are related. I can't say anything more since mod already gave me a warning to be polite, because i could hurt kids feelings.

I'm no relation to Mondo and I consider him a very intelligent poster here. I agree with most of what he says so lump me into his camp.

Stormy2213
February 21st, 2016, 10:23 AM
Not less and less. There is no one that takes him seriously except KING17 but i think they are related. I can't say anything more since mod already gave me a warning to be polite, because i could hurt kids feelings.

Post 2012 bandwagon on tilt!

nki
February 21st, 2016, 11:14 AM
The idea of the Kings being a legitimate Cup contender in 2 years without Kopitar has about the same chances of happening as Kopitar scoring 80pts per year at 35, Dean finding a Henrik Zetterberg in 5th round, or Dean finding ways to assemble a cheap but great supporting cast. In fact, it's probably less. You're assuming an unnecessary risk with no improvement to the team's actual chances. If it takes longer than 2 years, you might as well give yourself a chance with Kopitar now and do a proper rebuild down the road that's going to take the same amount of time to begin with. This retool idea sounds alluring in its speculative form, but nobody has proposed any realistic scenarios that would make it worth executing, or demonstrated that it is preferable to the current option.

KINGS17
February 21st, 2016, 11:18 AM
The idea of the Kings being a legitimate Cup contender in 2 years without Kopitar has about the same chances of happening as Kopitar scoring 80pts per year at 35, Dean finding a Henrik Zetterberg in 5th round, or Dean finding ways to assemble a cheap but great supporting cast. In fact, it's probably less. You're assuming an unnecessary risk with no improvement to the team's actual chances. If it takes longer than 2 years, you might as well give yourself a chance with Kopitar now and do a proper rebuild down the road that's going to take the same amount of time to begin with. This retool idea sounds alluring in its speculative form, but nobody has proposed any realistic scenarios that would make it worth executing, or demonstrated that it is preferable to the current option.

I think all of us that have been critical of Kopitar at all would agree that the most favorable thing that could have happened would have been for Kopitar and his agent to have taken a contract that is more in line with the reality of the salary cap over the next few seasons. Instead, Kopitar and his agent took full advantage of the situation to get as much money as he could with little regard for how it will affect the team's ability to compete for cups over the next few seasons.

hokiecat
February 21st, 2016, 11:21 AM
I think this is the essence of the debate. Is the ride really going to last a few more years?

OK, if you think the Kings are done and need to start retooling for a run in 2018, then I can see the logic in trading Kopi. That said, I agree with Dean's approach.

Let me turn Mondo's words against him-- Quick is not an elite goalie, he relies on athleticism, and he has only 1-2 good years left. So we get Granlund or Galchenyuk as our 2C and a #1 (http://letsgokings.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1) pick. By the time we retool and add the other top guy, Quick is done. And as I posted before, we have NOTHING in the system behind him. Jones is in SJ now. Berube (who was never going to be a NHL #1 (http://letsgokings.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1) ) is in NYI, and Bartosak beat his girlfriend up and probably won't ever return to North America, Alec Dillon got hurt after 7 games in the WHL.

We talk about who is important to the Kings (Kopi vs. Doughty), but J Quick is becoming crucial to our chances. If he was healthy on this road trip, we'd probably ride him more and finish 4-2-1. You can smoke and mirrors around Kopi or Drew, but we have 1 goalie in the entire organization right now with NHL starter talent (or with the possibility to develop his talent into a starter).

My biggest concern on trading for the future is that the future is far from guaranteed. Quick gets hurt or declines, and we're looking to sign a Karri Ramo or Jonas Hiller or old man Ryan Miller to be our goalie and I don't see that roster ever touching a Cup. I support what Dean did because we have a roster in place with better than average 1C, 2C, 1D, and 1G right now. He's got to go for it.

nki
February 21st, 2016, 11:23 AM
I think the Lucic deal was stupid. They should have traded into top 10 (the deal they had on table), picked one of the big forwards. Sign Sekera. And look for a rental up front or a cheaper option than Lucic. That's what I would have done. I also think Dean should push his scouting staff to momentarily take more chances on high upside "atypical" Kings picks while this team was/is contending. Scoring an unexpected top 6 skill F or top 4 PMD would have been more valuable over getting another 5 solid "system" Kings grinders. Not sure I agree with Yannetti on picking NA late because of easier development access, you have to roll for quality over quantity when you're a contender. Now you have a Nic Dowd - Nick Shore style situations, which is indicative of the fact that the development staff can churn out great role players from low picks, which is fantastic. But really means nothing for this club at this stage. Doesn't matter if you develop 5 Nick Shores in that timeframe.

Bollocks
February 21st, 2016, 11:33 AM
It's not really close. Kopitar has been a great 1C for the Kings once the season got into mid-November. 1C is a very important position, but Doughty plays a slightly more important role, does it at a level that is arguably at the #1 (http://letsgokings.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1) player in the world at his position, and is far more consistent than Kopitar. If one of the two had to be traded, the decision is a pretty easy one.

A couple of you take any criticism of Kopitar as people saying he is a complete stiff. That isn't the case. For the money Kopitar is paid, he needs to perform at a very high level almost all of the time. This isn't going to get better for him as the salary cap is not going to go up much and he is sucking up more cap space than he should. By doing so he limits Dean's ability to surround him with higher quality players, so Kopitar is going to have to carry the load himself. You can't get PAID, and not accept the responsibility.

I seldom see any opposing viewpoint that logically states why Kopitar warrants a $10M AAV. You're a good poster. The other guy is just childish and only posts on one topic with irrational baloney.

But it is close.

1.) His contract has absolutely ZERO relevance as to who is more of an MVP.
2.) Kopitar ALSO plays at a level ARGUABLY at #1 (http://letsgokings.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1) in the World in his position. You get 30 HCs and GMs to discuss this about Kopitar and Doughty and I'm SURE the result is not as "not even close" as Mondo and you think. I'm sure there would be a lot of differing opinions and arguments going for both players. The winner might as well still be Doughty, but it's not "not even close".
3.) He is NOT far more consistent than Kopitar. He just isn't. He has mediocre or bad stretches just as Kopitar does, but they're less apparent since he's playing defense (which, as some of you guys like to point out, is much easier to learn and play than offense). It doesn't show on the scoresheet. Granted, he's more consistent on large scale and stretches are likely shorter, but, again, it's not "not even close".

You're biased, just like Mondo. Bitter about the contract still? Judging by your post that is definitely the case since you brought that up completely off topic to my remark to Mondo's post.

Sure, I'm not too happy with it either, but you need to move on and not let it cloud your judgement when it's irrelevant. So far Kopitar is arguably playing his best season in his career (when you consider ALL aspects of the game) so he can't possibly be "far from Doughty" when it comes to being the team MVP. That's just stupid. You hate the contract - OK. But that's no reason to be so biased. It makes you less credible. Period. Just ask the rest of the league, ask the experts, ask anyone, and you will see you're biased.


I think the Lucic deal was stupid. They should have traded into top 10 (the deal they had on table), picked one of the big forwards. Sign Sekera. And look for a rental up front or a cheaper option than Lucic. That's what I would have done. I also think Dean should push his scouting staff to momentarily take more chances on high upside "atypical" Kings picks while this team was/is contending. Scoring an unexpected top 6 skill F or top 4 PMD would have been more valuable over getting another 5 solid "system" Kings grinders. Not sure I agree with Yannetti on picking NA late because of easier development access, you have to roll for quality over quantity when you're a contender. Now you have a Nic Dowd - Nick Shore situation which is indicative of the fact that the development staff can churn out great role players from low picks, which is fantastic. But really means nothing for this club at this stage. Doesn't matter if you develop 5 Nick Shores in that timeframe.

He seems to fit very well into the Kings' system and if they win the Cup with a good portion of his help, it will be worth it, trust me. If the Kings don't win it and Lucic walks, well...the path from hero to fool is very short. I trust Lombardi has some decent plan Bs, I doubt he'd go and make a trade like this knowing he can't keep up the contender status for 3-4 more years if Lucic walks. While the long-term contender status is up in the air and it seems Lombardi is willing to sacrifice it for Cups now, I doubt he'd go ALL in for ONE year of contending. That's just too risky.

KINGS17
February 21st, 2016, 11:42 AM
OK, if you think the Kings are done and need to start retooling for a run in 2018, then I can see the logic in trading Kopi. That said, I agree with Dean's approach.

Let me turn Mondo's words against him-- Quick is not an elite goalie, he relies on athleticism, and he has only 1-2 good years left. So we get Granlund or Galchenyuk as our 2C and a #1 (http://letsgokings.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1) pick. By the time we retool and add the other top guy, Quick is done. And as I posted before, we have NOTHING in the system behind him. Jones is in SJ now. Berube (who was never going to be a NHL #1 (http://letsgokings.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1) ) is in NYI, and Bartosak beat his girlfriend up and probably won't ever return to North America, Alec Dillon got hurt after 7 games in the WHL.

We talk about who is important to the Kings (Kopi vs. Doughty), but J Quick is becoming crucial to our chances. If he was healthy on this road trip, we'd probably ride him more and finish 4-2-1. You can smoke and mirrors around Kopi or Drew, but we have 1 goalie in the entire organization right now with NHL starter talent (or with the possibility to develop his talent into a starter).

My biggest concern on trading for the future is that the future is far from guaranteed. Quick gets hurt or declines, and we're looking to sign a Karri Ramo or Jonas Hiller or old man Ryan Miller to be our goalie and I don't see that roster ever touching a Cup. I support what Dean did because we have a roster in place with better than average 1C, 2C, 1D, and 1G right now. He's got to go for it.

Can't say I agree on this point. I think Quick may have 4 or 5 years left. I am concerned about Dean's ability to re-sign the home grown guys for slightly less money than they could get on the open market. Toffoli (contract expires 2017) , Doughty (contract expires 2019) and Muzzin (contract expires 2020) are going to be more expensive if they follow Kopitar's lead. There's a very good chance the Kings will lose Lucic and possibly Lewis heading into next season. I don't think Dean can move Brown without retaining some salary, or trading away a good young player with him in a deal. Kopitar's cap hit affects Dean's ability to trade Brown and retain some salary cap in the deal.

Mondo Blando
February 21st, 2016, 11:44 AM
But it is close.

1.) His contract has absolutely ZERO relevance as to who is more of an MVP.
2.) Kopitar ALSO plays at a level ARGUABLY at #1 (http://letsgokings.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1) in the World in his position. You get 30 HCs and GMs to discuss this about Kopitar and Doughty and I'm SURE the result is not as "not even close" as Mondo and you think. I'm sure there would be a lot of differing opinions and arguments going for both players. The winner might as well still be Doughty, but it's not "not even close".
3.) He is NOT far more consistent than Kopitar. He just isn't. He has mediocre or bad stretches just as Kopitar does, but they're less apparent since he's playing defense (which, as some of you guys like to point out, is much easier to learn and play than offense). It doesn't show on the scoresheet. Granted, he's more consistent on large scale and stretches are likely shorter, but, again, it's not "not even close".

You're biased, just like Mondo. Bitter about the contract still? Judging by your post that is definitely the case since you brought that up completely off topic to my remark to Mondo's post.

Sure, I'm not too happy with it either, but you need to move on and not let it cloud your judgement when it's irrelevant. So far Kopitar is arguably playing his best season in his career (when you consider ALL aspects of the game) so he can't possibly be "far from Doughty" when it comes to being the team MVP. That's just stupid. You hate the contract - OK. But that's no reason to be so biased. It makes you less credible. Period. Just ask the rest of the league, ask the experts, ask anyone, and you will see you're biased.



He seems to fit very well into the Kings' system and if they win the Cup with a good portion of his help, it will be worth it, trust me. If the Kings don't win it and Lucic walks, well...the path from hero to fool is very short. I trust Lombardi has some decent plan Bs, I doubt he'd go and make a trade like this knowing he can't keep up the contender status for 3-4 more years if Lucic walks. While the long-term contender status is up in the air and it seems Lombardi is willing to sacrifice it for Cups now, I doubt he'd go ALL in for ONE year of contending. That's just too risky.

It ain't even close.

Mondo Blando
February 21st, 2016, 12:01 PM
Three options: win now, rebuild to win later, or never commit and never win.

It's been crystal clear that Dean is mortgaging the future to win now. The farm is devoid of top talent and we have no first round picks. There is not even a goalie prospect in the system. I'm going to enjoy the ride for the new few years and we'll see what happens.

I would add the word "try" before each of those, because there is a flip side to each.

Try to win now and fail is the worst and most costly option on the table. It would sink the franchise for a decade by binding aging, unproductive players to retirement contracts.

This team desperately misses what Williams, Richards, Stoll, Voynov and Mitchell had brought in previous years. It hasn't been replaced - it can't in a Cap system, which is now even worse by Kopitar insisting on that extra $3.2 million.

Where is this "win now" coming from? They missed the playoffs last year. They look likely to make them this season, but does any one really think they are Cup worthy? They have three special players in Doughty, Kopitar and Quick - all in the best positions to have special players. But over the last two years their supporting depth has been decimated. This is their last best chance to win, and its not even a great chance. Things will be different starting this summer. There will be moves made, uncomfortable ones. It will take some time to sort that out.

Mondo Blando
February 21st, 2016, 12:05 PM
AGAIN with the "it's not even close"?

Dude, your whole life seems to rotate around frickin' hyperboles. Get your s*** together, less and less people take you seriously.

F****** pathetic.

"My whole life seems to rotate around hyperboles".

Let that one sink in and check back later.

GimpyHip
February 21st, 2016, 01:01 PM
"My whole life seems to rotate around hyperboles".

Let that one sink in and check back later.

Well, if you are going to call someone out for being hyperbolic, is there any other way but to use a ...............?

nki
February 21st, 2016, 01:02 PM
Hyperbolic functions were my favorite in high school math

hokiecat
February 21st, 2016, 01:06 PM
I would add the word "try" before each of those, because there is a flip side to each.

Try to win now and fail is the worst and most costly option on the table. It would sink the franchise for a decade by binding aging, unproductive players to retirement contracts.

This team desperately misses what Williams, Richards, Stoll, Voynov and Mitchell had brought in previous years. It hasn't been replaced - it can't in a Cap system, which is now even worse by Kopitar insisting on that extra $3.2 million.

Where is this "win now" coming from? They missed the playoffs last year. They look likely to make them this season, but does any one really think they are Cup worthy? They have three special players in Doughty, Kopitar and Quick - all in the best positions to have special players. But over the last two years their supporting depth has been decimated. This is their last best chance to win, and its not even a great chance. Things will be different starting this summer. There will be moves made, uncomfortable ones. It will take some time to sort that out.

So try to win later. Trade Kopi for a 2C and a first round pick. The fact is we still have ZERO elite talent in the pipeline. Zykov looks to be a top-6 or even top-9 but not a real first liner (no matter what Gann says in his puff piece on him last month). Mersch is a possible 3rd line banger with PP skills. Zykov has never impressed me in any of the prospect camps I have attended. Forbort is generic. Gravel is generic too. We have no goaltending in the pipeline. In terms of lower prospects, who do we have? Cernak on D and Amadio as a forward. Again, nobody who is an elite talent.

Granlund and a #12 (http://letsgokings.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=12) overall pick probably aren't going to save this franchise.

Regarding the supporting cast, we also miss Scuderi (who got old and lousy). IMO, you gotta be real about those guys. Williams is a special talent, but I think he wanted to go back east. He signed day 1 for money where the Kings should have found a way to keep him. Richards is done. Stoll signed for peanuts and was still waived. Voynov, if we was here, would have been moved or Marty when have been moved in the cap system. The way to replace those guys is with youngsters. And the Kings haven't done well in that regard. Shore can replace crappy Richards/Stoll (not a compliment) but we could really use a Colin Miller or Thomas Hickey on D.

hokiecat
February 21st, 2016, 01:10 PM
I think all of us that have been critical of Kopitar at all would agree that the most favorable thing that could have happened would have been for Kopitar and his agent to have taken a contract that is more in line with the reality of the salary cap over the next few seasons. Instead, Kopitar and his agent took full advantage of the situation to get as much money as he could with little regard for how it will affect the team's ability to compete for cups over the next few seasons.

More favorable for the Kings. LMK when Anze Kopitar decides to go for charitable organzation status. It sucks for us. But it probably sucks for Winnipeg to pay big Buff 7.6 AAV on the new contract.

hokiecat
February 21st, 2016, 01:17 PM
I think the Lucic deal was stupid. They should have traded into top 10 (the deal they had on table), picked one of the big forwards. Sign Sekera. And look for a rental up front or a cheaper option than Lucic. That's what I would have done. I also think Dean should push his scouting staff to momentarily take more chances on high upside "atypical" Kings picks while this team was/is contending. Scoring an unexpected top 6 skill F or top 4 PMD would have been more valuable over getting another 5 solid "system" Kings grinders. Not sure I agree with Yannetti on picking NA late because of easier development access, you have to roll for quality over quantity when you're a contender. Now you have a Nic Dowd - Nick Shore style situations, which is indicative of the fact that the development staff can churn out great role players from low picks, which is fantastic. But really means nothing for this club at this stage. Doesn't matter if you develop 5 Nick Shores in that timeframe.

I totally agree (except for Sekera because I get the impression he didn't want to be in LA). We basically gave up 3 NHLers for a year of cheap Lucic. I didn't like the trade then; and while I really like Lucic now, it will go down as a bad deal unless the Kings find a way to keep Lucic. Jones fetched a first round pick, we moved a first round pick, and Miller is a cheap young D. That's potentially 3 NHL players on cheap contracts in the 2018 time frame. That, to me, is how you pay guys like Kopi and Toffoli the big bucks-- you replenish from within using top prospects.

KINGS17
February 21st, 2016, 01:29 PM
But it is close.

1.) His contract has absolutely ZERO relevance as to who is more of an MVP.
2.) Kopitar ALSO plays at a level ARGUABLY at #1 (http://letsgokings.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1) in the World in his position. You get 30 HCs and GMs to discuss this about Kopitar and Doughty and I'm SURE the result is not as "not even close" as Mondo and you think. I'm sure there would be a lot of differing opinions and arguments going for both players. The winner might as well still be Doughty, but it's not "not even close".
3.) He is NOT far more consistent than Kopitar. He just isn't. He has mediocre or bad stretches just as Kopitar does, but they're less apparent since he's playing defense (which, as some of you guys like to point out, is much easier to learn and play than offense). It doesn't show on the scoresheet. Granted, he's more consistent on large scale and stretches are likely shorter, but, again, it's not "not even close".

You're biased, just like Mondo. Bitter about the contract still? Judging by your post that is definitely the case since you brought that up completely off topic to my remark to Mondo's post.

Sure, I'm not too happy with it either, but you need to move on and not let it cloud your judgement when it's irrelevant. So far Kopitar is arguably playing his best season in his career (when you consider ALL aspects of the game) so he can't possibly be "far from Doughty" when it comes to being the team MVP. That's just stupid. You hate the contract - OK. But that's no reason to be so biased. It makes you less credible. Period. Just ask the rest of the league, ask the experts, ask anyone, and you will see you're biased.



He seems to fit very well into the Kings' system and if they win the Cup with a good portion of his help, it will be worth it, trust me. If the Kings don't win it and Lucic walks, well...the path from hero to fool is very short. I trust Lombardi has some decent plan Bs, I doubt he'd go and make a trade like this knowing he can't keep up the contender status for 3-4 more years if Lucic walks. While the long-term contender status is up in the air and it seems Lombardi is willing to sacrifice it for Cups now, I doubt he'd go ALL in for ONE year of contending. That's just too risky.


http://www.tsn.ca/the-insider-caps-hawks-dominate-annual-head-coaches-poll-1.429343

Strange, I see Doughty's name mentioned, but not Kopitar's name.

GimpyHip
February 21st, 2016, 01:52 PM
http://www.tsn.ca/the-insider-caps-hawks-dominate-annual-head-coaches-poll-1.429343

Strange, I see Doughty's name mentioned, but not Kopitar's name.

Great point! I am surprised you didn't comment on Toews getting infinitely more votes than Kopitar too!

Really, have your arguments about how much more one player is than another but this isn't much of a data point.

KINGS17
February 21st, 2016, 01:55 PM
Great point! I am surprised you didn't comment on Toews getting infinitely more votes than Kopitar too!

Really, have your arguments about how much more one player is than another but this isn't much of a data point.

The other poster selected the data point, not me. He is the one that mentioned the 30 NHL head coaches. Sorry if you don't like the results of the poll.

Bollocks
February 21st, 2016, 01:58 PM
"My whole life seems to rotate around hyperboles".

Let that one sink in and check back later.

You're right, I should've said "your whole LGK "life" seems to rotate around hyperboles". Happy now? I have no idea what you're like outside these boards, but if you're the same as around here, I wonder...


http://www.tsn.ca/the-insider-caps-hawks-dominate-annual-head-coaches-poll-1.429343

Strange, I see Doughty's name mentioned, but not Kopitar's name.

Good, at least you have something to show for your argument. You seem to be a good henchman for Mondo.

I keed, I keed, and I still don't think he's not even close to DD. But the experts seem to differ, although even Toews got only 1 vote. It can't be THAT bad that he's not mentioned at all.
Usually I prefer polls with point system since they're more relevant, usually it's hard to pick just one guy. But I know this is now like grasping for straws, so I'll just shut up.
EDIT: I thought about it some more and these polls have two more flaws: Kane is having a monumentally great offensive season so only crumbs of votes are left for others and the polls are not Kopitar vs. Doughty. But again, straws, I guess. Relevant, but straws, since I have no proof that it would make any difference.

You do have to admit you were completely off the rails with his contract, though. That s*** has nothing to do with this in particular and you know it. It sounds totally bitter and as a result, your argument biased.

KINGS17
February 21st, 2016, 03:29 PM
You're right, I should've said "your whole LGK "life" seems to rotate around hyperboles". Happy now? I have no idea what you're like outside these boards, but if you're the same as around here, I wonder...



Good, at least you have something to show for your argument. You seem to be a good henchman for Mondo.

I keed, I keed, and I still don't think he's not even close to DD. But the experts seem to differ, although even Toews got only 1 vote. It can't be THAT bad that he's not mentioned at all.
Usually I prefer polls with point system since they're more relevant, usually it's hard to pick just one guy. But I know this is now like grasping for straws, so I'll just shut up.
EDIT: I thought about it some more and these polls have two more flaws: Kane is having a monumentally great offensive season so only crumbs of votes are left for others and the polls are not Kopitar vs. Doughty. But again, straws, I guess. Relevant, but straws, since I have no proof that it would make any difference.

You do have to admit you were completely off the rails with his contract, though. That s*** has nothing to do with this in particular and you know it. It sounds totally bitter and as a result, your argument biased.

Not sure what you mean by off the rails. It's a bad contract. The fact that Kopitar received that deal doesn't make it a good contract. That doesn't make me biased, it makes me realistic. As a result of Kopitar's contract the Kings will have less money to spread around the rest of the roster, and less talent. That is especially true given their current cap situation and the likelihood that the cap will not increase much if at all for next season.

I am no one's henchman. Mondo and I disagreed completely on the Richards contract buy out, but many of you have selective memory. Some of you can be counted on to ride Kopitar's jock no matter what though. Looking forward to the day when you prove me wrong on that front.

gretzky99
February 21st, 2016, 03:32 PM
I'm not sure I agree that a #1 (http://letsgokings.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1) d-man is more important than a #1 (http://letsgokings.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1) center in this system. Take away who the players are. Sutter clearly relies on his #1 (http://letsgokings.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1) center a lot, just as he relies on his #1 (http://letsgokings.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1) d-man a lot.
They both are near the top in TOI at their position. Not sure how you can argue one is more valuable than the other.

gretzky99
February 21st, 2016, 03:34 PM
And the Kopitar contract isn't a bad contract. It's a market value contract. There is a difference.

And that's not a fan's perspective. That's actual market value based on Toews and what Stamkos is likely to get.

You could argue it's bad for the team (I would disagree) but it's not what I would consider an overpayment.

GimpyHip
February 21st, 2016, 03:46 PM
The other poster selected the data point, not me. He is the one that mentioned the 30 NHL head coaches. Sorry if you don't like the results of the poll.

I don't care about the results of the poll. Just saying it is pretty useless as an argument for Kopitar vs Doughty. I don't even have a dog in the fight as I think it is a dumb argument. Both are fabulous players. Both are playing in a defense first system and are among the best in the league at their position. Kopitar is 6th in scoring among centers and only one of those above him have a better +/- and only one has a better Face off win %. Doughty is 12th among defensemen in scoring and only one of those above him has a better +/-. Both are top two at their position in average time on ice. I really like having both guys on the team I root for.

The "not even close" bit is clearly hyperbole. It is clearly close. Otherwise, I can see both sides having reasonable arguments for who is more valuable. The Kings can win the occasional game or two without either of them. They are not going deep in the playoffs without either of them. Why are you arguing about this again?

Kingsfan626
February 21st, 2016, 04:47 PM
I'm not sure I agree that a #1 (http://letsgokings.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1) d-man is more important than a #1 (http://letsgokings.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1) center in this system. Take away who the players are. Sutter clearly relies on his #1 (http://letsgokings.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1) center a lot, just as he relies on his #1 (http://letsgokings.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1) d-man a lot.
They both are near the top in TOI at their position. Not sure how you can argue one is more valuable than the other.

King's have been capable of winning without Kopitar in the lineup in the past but you take away Doughty's 30+ minutes per night and give it to Muzzin or anyone else on D and you're going to see Quick ask for a trade ASAP.

eyesk8r
February 21st, 2016, 05:22 PM
I thought this thread was about Mersch???

KINGS17
February 21st, 2016, 05:28 PM
I don't care about the results of the poll. Just saying it is pretty useless as an argument for Kopitar vs Doughty. I don't even have a dog in the fight as I think it is a dumb argument. Both are fabulous players. Both are playing in a defense first system and are among the best in the league at their position. Kopitar is 6th in scoring among centers and only one of those above him have a better +/- and only one has a better Face off win %. Doughty is 12th among defensemen in scoring and only one of those above him has a better +/-. Both are top two at their position in average time on ice. I really like having both guys on the team I root for.

The "not even close" bit is clearly hyperbole. It is clearly close. Otherwise, I can see both sides having reasonable arguments for who is more valuable. The Kings can win the occasional game or two without either of them. They are not going deep in the playoffs without either of them. Why are you arguing about this again?

Of course you don't, it doesn't support what you are saying.

Moog
February 21st, 2016, 05:29 PM
King's have been capable of winning without Kopitar in the lineup in the past but you take away Doughty's 30+ minutes per night and give it to Muzzin or anyone else on D and you're going to see Quick ask for a trade ASAP.

Exactly!
Lose DD and the ship sinks.

Lose Kopi....been there, done that.

More players can step up for Kopi.
None can step up for DD.

aaron
February 21st, 2016, 05:29 PM
http://i.imgur.com/dVFcrJF.jpg

gretzky99
February 21st, 2016, 05:53 PM
The Kings could not win consistently without either player. Trying to argue one is more valuable than the other makes zero sense. I don't see the point.

No one player can do everything that Kopitar does just as with Doughty. They both play in all situations and the most minutes. I'm just happy the Kings have a true #1 (http://letsgokings.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1) center and #1 (http://letsgokings.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1) d-man. Very few teams can say that.

GimpyHip
February 21st, 2016, 07:09 PM
Of course you don't, it doesn't support what you are saying.

You are so busy arguing with everyone you are missing my point. Of course it doesn't support (or contradict) what I am saying because I am not even taking a side in this argument.

Let me attempt to make my point clearly and simply.

You used a poll to support an argument that really didn't have any merit in relation to that argument. The poll in no way compared defensemen with centers so it didn't help your point. It didn't damage your point either. It was just irrelevant.

As to the latest Kopitar is good but not as good as Toews, or Getzlaf or Doughty and not even close argument, I find them to be a little silly. Sure, I have an opinion but mostly I am just a fan. I would love to have any of those guys on my team and we have two of them. You all are verging on some kind of obsession over this.

GimpyHip
February 21st, 2016, 07:14 PM
I thought this thread was about Mersch???

You are so silly. All threads are about Brown being terrible (or terrible at his salary) or Kopitar being good but not as good as X, or Kopitar being selfish because he signed a market value contract. Or some combination of those topics. Sometimes, another player will be used as a foil to start a conversation so that we can subtly steer the discussion into a slightly different version of one of our three topics.

Are you new here? ;)

santiclaws
February 21st, 2016, 07:51 PM
I'm not sure I agree that a #1 (http://letsgokings.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1) d-man is more important than a #1 (http://letsgokings.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1) center in this system. Take away who the players are. Sutter clearly relies on his #1 (http://letsgokings.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1) center a lot, just as he relies on his #1 (http://letsgokings.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1) d-man a lot.
They both are near the top in TOI at their position. Not sure how you can argue one is more valuable than the other.How? Easily. A #1 (http://letsgokings.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1) defenseman is more valuable than a #1 (http://letsgokings.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1) center in any system (Hockey 101 here) but especially in this system. Listen to Lombardi talk about building a team from the net out sometime. And yes, both Kopitar and Doughty are near the top in minutes for their position, which means that Doughty is on the ice about 50% more time than Kopitar. So who's more important, the guy on the ice for 1/3 of the game or the guy on the ice for 1/2 the game?

King'sPawn
February 21st, 2016, 08:15 PM
The Kings could not win consistently without either player. Trying to argue one is more valuable than the other makes zero sense. I don't see the point.

No one player can do everything that Kopitar does just as with Doughty. They both play in all situations and the most minutes. I'm just happy the Kings have a true #1 (http://letsgokings.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1) center and #1 (http://letsgokings.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1) d-man. Very few teams can say that.

For what it's worth, I think the Kings would be worse off long term without Doughty than without Kopitar. In that regard, I'd say that Doughty is more valuable than Kopitar.

But I do think that Kopitar compares a lot better to the top centers of the league than what his detractors credit him.

Mondo Blando
February 21st, 2016, 09:08 PM
I thought this thread was about Mersch???

Two threads headed in different directions got merged.

Birdman
February 21st, 2016, 09:31 PM
Just going to toss my $.02 into this discussion for a second in regards to players of importance, but those posters thinking that Kopitar is more valuable than Doughty are crazy. Doughty is the best player on this team, hands down, no questions asked.

Those questioning that a #1 (http://letsgokings.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1) All World Defenseman is less valuable than a #1 (http://letsgokings.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1) , All World Center need to look no further than Yzerman and LIdstrom. Yzerman never won without Lidstrom, yet LIdstrom won without Yzerman.

SmytheKing
February 21st, 2016, 09:58 PM
Just going to toss my $.02 into this discussion for a second in regards to players of importance, but those posters thinking that Kopitar is more valuable than Doughty are crazy. Doughty is the best player on this team, hands down, no questions asked.

Those questioning that a #1 (http://letsgokings.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1) All World Defenseman is less valuable than a #1 (http://letsgokings.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1) , All World Center need to look no further than Yzerman and LIdstrom. Yzerman never won without Lidstrom, yet LIdstrom won without Yzerman.

But not without Datsyuk and Zetterberg.

Dr. No
February 21st, 2016, 10:01 PM
Both players are great, but Doughty is WAY more important to the Kings system than Kopi. #1 (http://letsgokings.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1) , generational d-men are much harder to come by than good centermen. That's one of the main reasons I still think Kopi'S contract is a joke. Doughty should be making that much.

Anyway, both players are on the same team, a good problem to have.

Bollocks
February 22nd, 2016, 12:29 AM
Not sure what you mean by off the rails. It's a bad contract. The fact that Kopitar received that deal doesn't make it a good contract. That doesn't make me biased, it makes me realistic. As a result of Kopitar's contract the Kings will have less money to spread around the rest of the roster, and less talent. That is especially true given their current cap situation and the likelihood that the cap will not increase much if at all for next season.

In this context, yes. Never was a contract relevant in discussion of MVPs. Never. In THIS discussion, bringing up a contract makes you biased. I.e. Kopi's contract requires him to be even better. So, what, he's not the MVP frontrunner because of his contract vs. Doughty's? So if DD's contract was up at the same time and he got 11M AAV for 8 years, they would be somehow closer in regards to MVP talk? No. Just as the Head coaches poll doesn't include players' contracts in the discussion, so shouldn't ours. We weren't talking about expectation vs. reality.


I am no one's henchman. Mondo and I disagreed completely on the Richards contract buy out, but many of you have selective memory. Some of you can be counted on to ride Kopitar's jock no matter what though. Looking forward to the day when you prove me wrong on that front.

Nah, it was a joke, as I implied.

Personally I haven't ridden Kopitar's jock no matter what. For many years my argument was that a) the grass is always greener elsewhere, so "anti-Kopitar" camp needs a reality check and b) that Kopitar will improve his consistency and responsibility with time. I was quite right since the Kings did win 2 Cups with Kopitar being the #1 (http://letsgokings.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1) center and ONE OF the leaders both production-wise and leadership-wise, he also seems to be AT the elite level (something people were doubting he will ever be able to do) and he IS more consistent.

I was critical of him last year. Maybe I wasn't as vocal, but that's because I don't really believe in sensless online bashing. I did state my opinion though. I even said that if he sucks this year again that he should get traded (if he didn't want to sign a very discounted contract). But alas, the contract situation took a long time, Kopitar started playing terrific in the process and here we are, 10M AAV contract that's causing rift despite the player playing awesome.


How? Easily. A #1 (http://letsgokings.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1) defenseman is more valuable than a #1 (http://letsgokings.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1) center in any system (Hockey 101 here) but especially in this system. Listen to Lombardi talk about building a team from the net out sometime. And yes, both Kopitar and Doughty are near the top in minutes for their position, which means that Doughty is on the ice about 50% more time than Kopitar. So who's more important, the guy on the ice for 1/3 of the game or the guy on the ice for 1/2 the game?

This isn't entirely true (it doesn't take everything into account).

In THIS system Kopitar provides massive defensive stability and shuts down opposing top centers, all while having to skate 200 feet for the ENTIRE time he's on ice (unlike Doughty) and HAVING to produce offensively (unlike Doughty, who should produce offensively, too, but it's not the most important thing he does). Kopitar's offense and defense are both equally important. He also has extremely good possession numbers, which is a massive bonus to team defense.

Ask Doughty how would he feel skating 200 feet for the ENTIRE game and having the pressure to constantly produce offensively and then get back to me.

The difference is in Drew's favor, but it isn't HUGE.

gretzky99
February 22nd, 2016, 01:47 PM
You could argue that a #1 (http://letsgokings.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1) d-man only has to cover 2/3 of the ice while a #1 (http://letsgokings.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1) center has to cover all 200 feet.

santiclaws
February 22nd, 2016, 01:50 PM
You could argue that a #1 (http://letsgokings.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1) d-man only has to cover 2/3 of the ice while a #1 (http://letsgokings.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1) center has to cover all 200 feet.
And a goalie rarely ventures 10 feet from his own net, so he's basically freeloading out there.

DRGinLBC
February 22nd, 2016, 01:56 PM
Has anyone tried that new Quesalupa at Taco Bell?

santiclaws
February 22nd, 2016, 01:59 PM
Kopitar skated this morning, if anyone cares. Not with his regular line on line rushes, so likely not playing Tuesday.

rajuabju
February 22nd, 2016, 02:11 PM
And a goalie rarely ventures 10 feet from his own net, so he's basically freeloading out there.

We ALL know Quick is a system goalie, and would be average at best on any other team.


Has anyone tried that new Quesalupa at Taco Bell?
One of the few things to ever disappoint me at TB.

Moog
February 22nd, 2016, 02:30 PM
You could argue that a #1 (http://letsgokings.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1) d-man only has to cover 2/3 of the ice while a #1 (http://letsgokings.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1) center has to cover all 200 feet.

No, you cannot argue that.
The value of a player is dependent on the amount of ice they occupy/use during the game?!?!
Anyone who would argue that does not understand the game of hockey.

Now you are just trolling everyone.

KINGS17
February 22nd, 2016, 02:48 PM
Kopitar skated this morning, if anyone cares. Not with his regular line on line rushes, so likely not playing Tuesday.

We need a thread about Kopitar's injury to cover this. :P

Lich King
February 22nd, 2016, 03:21 PM
I thought this thread was about Mersch???

That was just a primer...

http://blog.itil.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/flogging_dead_horse_what.jpg

VCRW
February 22nd, 2016, 03:22 PM
You could argue that a #1 (http://letsgokings.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1) d-man only has to cover 2/3 of the ice while a #1 (http://letsgokings.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1) center has to cover all 200 feet.

You could, but you would be showing your ignorance -- just like that other guy who said it was more difficult to play at forward than at defense.

KINGS17
February 22nd, 2016, 04:00 PM
You could, but you would be showing your ignorance -- just like that other guy who said it was more difficult to play at forward than at defense.

This is what I have told all the defensemen that I have ever played with.

Helvetica
February 22nd, 2016, 04:05 PM
This is what I have told all the defensemen that I have ever played with.

I remember in rec league one season, we were short forwards so one of our defensemen had to play up. The guy could barely breathe after his first shift.

KINGS17
February 22nd, 2016, 04:29 PM
I remember in rec league one season, we were short forwards so one of our defensemen had to play up. The guy could barely breathe after his first shift.

If we were leading by two or three goals heading into the third, I used to tell my defensemen that we didn't need anymore goals and to make the safe play. That is unless they saw me cruising around the red line open for a pass. :)

I was kidding (sort of).

Mondo Blando
February 22nd, 2016, 04:39 PM
You could argue that a #1 (http://letsgokings.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1) d-man only has to cover 2/3 of the ice while a #1 (http://letsgokings.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1) center has to cover all 200 feet.

Dead wrong.

There are maybe - maybe - three #1 (http://letsgokings.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1) centers in the league who play 200 feet.

Its a luxury, not a requirement. Your first line center's top requirement is to be the team's offensive catalyst. Playing responsibly is a bonus, and a relatively new trend. Just so happens that the three who do also happen to have won the last 6 Cups. Hockey is cyclical, the possession game will fall out of favor as soon as someone figures out how to beat it.

Birdman
February 22nd, 2016, 05:14 PM
Hockey is cyclical, the possession game will fall out of favor as soon as someone figures out how to beat it.

Size, defense, and goaltending has always consistently won out in the NHL going back to forever and a day. Mobility on the back end is now required, but outside of the Oilers and Penguins, nobody won with a run and gun team with pure offense and speed.

I don't see this trend changing anytime soon.

hokiecat
February 22nd, 2016, 05:57 PM
You could argue that a #1 (http://letsgokings.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1) d-man only has to cover 2/3 of the ice while a #1 (http://letsgokings.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1) center has to cover all 200 feet.

Dead wrong.

There are maybe - maybe - three #1 (http://letsgokings.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1) centers in the league who play 200 feet..

Kopi, Toews, Bergeron, Backstrom, Getzlaf, Datsyuk.

Then you have guys who play a complete game but don't score commensurate with elite number 1 centers, such as Backes and ROR. There are probably more but I was just going off the top of my head.

Mondo Blando
February 22nd, 2016, 06:19 PM
Kopi, Toews, Bergeron, Backstrom, Getzlaf, Datsyuk.

Then you have guys who play a complete game but don't score commensurate with elite number 1 centers, such as Backes and ROR. There are probably more but I was just going off the top of my head.

Getzlaf and Backstrom are definitely not 200 foot centers. Datsyuk gets an asterisk because while he is probably among the best players in the league when healthy, its so rare that he is an after thought in these types of discussions.

Its Toews, Kopitar and Bergeron who fit that bill among the top 20 centers in today's game. Others like Backes and Hanzal, add Barkov, Koivu and Plekanec too - who are in the role of top center that also play in all three zones, but only one or two of them are playoff bound.

Mondo Blando
February 22nd, 2016, 06:45 PM
Size, defense, and goaltending has always consistently won out in the NHL going back to forever and a day. Mobility on the back end is now required, but outside of the Oilers and Penguins, nobody won with a run and gun team with pure offense and speed.

I don't see this trend changing anytime soon.

Technically we could argue that Chicago has been more of a skating team, but their style and the Kings' approach have been duking it out for supremacy for half of this decade.

Transition is the current key. Hawks move it quickly, the Kings go station to station with control. Defensemen who can move the puck are key to both. Having a 200 foot centerman is a huge advantage, but if the Pens, Sharks, Ducks or Lightning had a Doughty or Keith, their centers would definitely be good enough to hoist the Cup, even if they only cover 180 feet of the rink.

Bollocks
February 23rd, 2016, 03:46 AM
No, you cannot argue that.
The value of a player is dependent on the amount of ice they occupy/use during the game?!?!
Anyone who would argue that does not understand the game of hockey.

Now you are just trolling everyone.

Then you can't really argue DD>Kopitar because he has higher time on ice. If a player is very good and isn't very mistake prone, then basically the only limitation with regards to TOI is his conditioning vs. workload.


You could, but you would be showing your ignorance -- just like that other guy who said it was more difficult to play at forward than at defense.

AFAIK when Kopitar's defensive prowess was pointed out, "your camp" said that defense is easier to learn and play and that we should stop putting so much emphasis on his defensive play.

Make up your minds already and stop spinning it however you deem fit. And I haven't even said it's just forward vs. defense. I said that Kopitar HAS to play great at both ends of the ice to earn his MVP, yet Doughty doesn't really have to, at least not with the consistency of offense that is requested from Kopitar on BOTH ends. You can't just ignore this.


Dead wrong.

There are maybe - maybe - three #1 (http://letsgokings.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1) centers in the league who play 200 feet.

Its a luxury, not a requirement. Your first line center's top requirement is to be the team's offensive catalyst. Playing responsibly is a bonus, and a relatively new trend. Just so happens that the three who do also happen to have won the last 6 Cups.

In general, yes. In Kopitar's case (which is the point of the debate here), not a luxury but a requirement. I'd even go as far as to say a PRIORITY. Whether you like it or not (I know you don't, but that doesn't change it one bit) - it's the way this team is built and the way it functions.


Hockey is cyclical, the possession game will fall out of favor as soon as someone figures out how to beat it.

Good God what a load of strawgrasping bullcrap. Yeah, and what if the NHL decides to limit the offensive zone time to 12 seconds! OH NO, QUICKLY TRADE KOPITAR WHILE HE'S STILL RELEVANT AND USEFUL.

Let me guess, if it does indeed happen you're going to be overjoyed and start a thread on LGK with a title "I TOLD YOU SO".

I'll put 2015 champagne in the cooler for you. At the time we'll have to open it it will likely be old enough to be considered vintage and Kopitar will in retirement anyway. You'll still enjoy it, though, it's the type of person you are. You will probably start telling us how it COULD happen earlier and in THAT case Kopitar would be USELESS and how SCREWED the Kings would be, oh no!

gretzky99
February 23rd, 2016, 06:56 AM
i'm sorry people, but a Selke two-way center that leads your team in scoring 8 straight years is more rare than a #1 (http://letsgokings.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1) d-man. Kopitar is the only one.

King'sPawn
February 23rd, 2016, 08:08 AM
i'm sorry people, but a Selke two-way center that leads your team in scoring 8 straight years is more rare than a #1 (http://letsgokings.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1) d-man. Kopitar is the only one.

More rare does not mean more valuable.

When Kopitar goes down, his 20 minutes get picked up by 11-12 less skilled players.

When Doughty goes down, his 30 minutes gets spread to 5-6 less skilled players.

gretzky99
February 23rd, 2016, 08:43 AM
But wouldn't you agree that Doughty's responsibilities are less than Kopitar's?

King'sPawn
February 23rd, 2016, 09:17 AM
But wouldn't you agree that Doughty's responsibilities are less than Kopitar's?

Not at all. Doughty's minutes are arguably harder than anyone else in the league. He gets so many minutes because he has to limit the offense of the opposition's top offensive players while generating offense and initializing the rush from the back end with carries and breakout passes.

The Kings demand a lot of defensive support from their forwards, but the system is heavily reliant on effective defensemen.

VCRW
February 23rd, 2016, 09:34 AM
i'm sorry people, but a Selke two-way center that leads your team in scoring 8 straight years is more rare than a #1 (http://letsgokings.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1) d-man. Kopitar is the only one.

Exactly how many Selkes has he won, Lady Byng?

gretzky99
February 23rd, 2016, 09:48 AM
As many as Doughty's Norris collection.

gretzky99
February 23rd, 2016, 09:52 AM
I don't know about the system being more reliant on d-men. Seems to me that if you can turn Muzzin into a top pairing d-man it makes me wonder if the system helps the d-man more than the other way around.

In the end it doesn't matter. Doughty is a fantastic player and I wouldn't trade him for another d-man in the league. And at 26 he could still get better which is crazy.

santiclaws
February 23rd, 2016, 09:55 AM
i'm sorry people, but a Selke two-way center that leads your team in scoring 8 straight years is more rare than a #1 (http://letsgokings.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1) d-man. Kopitar is the only one.
This is so ****ing absurd. Doughty is arguably, right now, the best player in the league. Kopitar is not in the conversation.

Salty Dog
February 23rd, 2016, 09:57 AM
More rare does not mean more valuable.

When Kopitar goes down, his 20 minutes get picked up by 11-12 less skilled players.

When Doughty goes down, his 30 minutes gets spread to 5-6 less skilled players.

Exactly. And those "less skilled forwards" consist of guys like Carter, Lucic, TT, Gaborik, etc. vs. Muzzin, McNabb, Martinez, and Schenn. Doughty's value is increased by how thin the blueline is after him.

Mondo Blando
February 23rd, 2016, 10:11 AM
i'm sorry people, but a Selke two-way center that leads your team in scoring 8 straight years is more rare than a #1 (http://letsgokings.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1) d-man. Kopitar is the only one.

You so massively over-rate Kopitar that it makes those who disagree with you appear to have negative views of him.

Its not the case. Kopitar is a terrific player, definitely a top 5 center in this league when in his game. Drew Doughty is already a bona fide first ballot hall of famer. A generational talent who has.not only won everywhere, but has been spectacular and durable while.doing so.

He IS the Kings transition game. Best transition player in the world, both offensively and defensively. He has earned every bit of the praise heaped on his shoulders, and based on the lack of Doughty talk on this board, is actually under-rated by his own fan base.

The difference between the role of centermen and defensemen seems to be the debate here.

I think the big issue is that people are assuming that because he plays a complete game that somehow that is the role of top line center. Its actually an aberration, and we are priviliged to have a rarity like Kopitar here in LA. But, the Kings could do just as well with a more prolific center who doesn't necessarily put as much effort into the details.

The reason why Kopitar is always included or mentioned in the "most underrated" discussions is because, frankly, he has underachieved in his primary role as an offensive catalyst but excelled in the less sexy aspects of the game that get missed by those on the East Coast who get their updated from NHL Tonight, and only see the last two rounds of playoff action where Anze hasn't been as impressive. We get to see and cherish.those details here, but it has to be understood that Doughty is unquestionably known as a world class talent, and Kopitar is at a level below.

Of course none of this matters, but if we are gonna talk about it, there's my opinion.

Gargamel33
February 23rd, 2016, 10:14 AM
This is so ****ing absurd. Doughty is arguably, right now, the best player in the league. Kopitar is not in the conversation.

You made a statement. Start pasting articles that prove that please. There are plenty articles in last years, that argue Kopitar is on top/near top of NHL.

We are waiting for articles that argue the same about Doughty.

Gargamel33
February 23rd, 2016, 10:18 AM
I just don't see that about Doughty. Where are all those praises, Norris awards, articles, coach statements, reporter stories, stats that support Doughty as the best player in the world? Maybe Doughty is overrated by Kings fans and the rest of the world just doesn't see what you see?

Salty Dog
February 23rd, 2016, 10:38 AM
I just don't see that about Doughty. Where are all those praises, Norris awards, articles, coach statements, reporter stories, stats that support Doughty as the best player in the world? Maybe Doughty is overrated by Kings fans and the rest of the world just doesn't see what you see?

https://www.nhl.com/news/time-has-come-for-kings-doughty-to-claim-norris/c-732702

Not the best writing you'll read today, but sums things up nicely. Also, it's from 2014 and I think most people would agree he's only gotten better since then.

santiclaws
February 23rd, 2016, 10:39 AM
You made a statement. Start pasting articles that prove that please. There are plenty articles in last years, that argue Kopitar is on top/near top of NHL.

We are waiting for articles that argue the same about Doughty.
Articles?? OK, here's one: NHL coaches voted Doughty the best defenseman in the league by a wide margin (Doughty got 12 votes as the best defenseman, Karlsson was second-highest with 5). Less than a month ago. And before you say anything, no, Doughty was not among the players getting votes for best player (although I think the coaches may have taken "best player" as "best forward" since there was no "best forward" category and no defenseman received a single vote). Best player was, overwhelmingly, Kane with 22 votes (out of 27). You know, the guy who scores a ****load of goals and plays no D. Benn was second. Kopitar received no votes (see a trend here?). People massively overrate Kopitar on this board because of his defense and I keep saying the same thing - the defense is nice, but that's not a forward's primary responsibility. There are lots of forwards who are terrific defensively. The most valuable thing a forward can deliver is goals, lots of goal scoring is the most valuable commodity in the NHL, and Kopitar has always been weak in that category.

http://www.tsn.ca/talent/the-insider-caps-hawks-dominate-annual-head-coaches-poll-1.429343

VCRW
February 23rd, 2016, 10:46 AM
AFAIK when Kopitar's defensive prowess was pointed out, "your camp" said that defense is easier to learn and play and that we should stop putting so much emphasis on his defensive play.

Make up your minds already and stop spinning it however you deem fit. And I haven't even said it's just forward vs. defense. I said that Kopitar HAS to play great at both ends of the ice to earn his MVP, yet Doughty doesn't really have to, at least not with the consistency of offense that is requested from Kopitar on BOTH ends. You can't just ignore this.

Exactly what "camp" are you talking about? That statement is so absurd that it's difficult to respond. Additionally, I have never made the ridiculous assertion that you are so blindly attributing to me in this first sentence. A defenseman like Drew Doughty is the most valuable commodity in the league. When Drew's contract comes up for renewal, he will be paid more than Kopitar and deservedly so.

Gargamel33
February 23rd, 2016, 10:50 AM
Voted for best defenseman is miles away from best player so that was a bad try. Statement was Doughty is the best player in the world so keep trying. Shouldn't be hard to find right?
Kopitar could be better in attack if Kings wouldn't demand he playes huge defense all the time to help *sky is falling* all great Doughty doing his job.

VCRW
February 23rd, 2016, 10:51 AM
I just don't see that about Doughty. Where are all those praises, Norris awards, articles, coach statements, reporter stories, stats that support Doughty as the best player in the world? Maybe Doughty is overrated by Kings fans and the rest of the world just doesn't see what you see?

Doughty will win the Norris this year. Take that to the bank. It is an opinion shared by nearly all of the NHL commentators who I have heard expound on the subject.

Gargamel33
February 23rd, 2016, 10:52 AM
One article from 2014 and no Norris. That is all from the best player in NHL?

santiclaws
February 23rd, 2016, 10:55 AM
Voted for best defenseman is miles away from best player so that was a bad try. Statement was Doughty is the best player in the world so keep trying. Shouldn't be hard to find right?
Kopitar could be better in attack if Kings wouldn't demand he playes huge defense all the time to help *sky is falling* all great Doughty doing his job.
That's just really, really pathetic.

gretzky99
February 23rd, 2016, 10:56 AM
sounds like there are two conversations going on.

1. Kopitar vs. Doughty as a player.
2. #1 (http://letsgokings.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1) center vs. #1 (http://letsgokings.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1) d-man in the Kings system.

i have no opinion on #1 (http://letsgokings.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1) (apples to oranges) but i believe the #1 (http://letsgokings.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1) center position is more important on the Kings than the #1 (http://letsgokings.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1) d-man. it doesn't have anything to do with who the player is. it has to do with playing the 3rd man high, the stress put on the #1 (http://letsgokings.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1) center and all that he is asked to do. it doesn't negate that a #1 (http://letsgokings.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1) d-man is important, i just think the center is asked to do more.
i think you could find other d-men to fill Doughty's spot much easier than you can find a player comparable to Kopitar. Subban, Pietrangelo, Weber, Keith, Suter, Hedman and Ekman-Larsson could all fill the #1 (http://letsgokings.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1) d-man role comparably. who other than Toews could do what Kopitar does?

Gargamel33
February 23rd, 2016, 10:57 AM
I hope he will and Kopitar takes Selke and at the end both take the cup.

What i question here are statements about Doughty - best player in NHL. Not by Kings fans opinion, but by other, more relevant sources.

Gargamel33
February 23rd, 2016, 11:00 AM
That's just really, really pathetic.
Let's try again. You made a statement about Doughty being best player in the world. I want evidence. You can't find them. Who is pathetic?

santiclaws
February 23rd, 2016, 11:10 AM
sounds like there are two conversations going on.

1. Kopitar vs. Doughty as a player.
2. #1 (http://letsgokings.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1) center vs. #1 (http://letsgokings.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1) d-man in the Kings system.

i have no opinion on #1 (http://letsgokings.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1) (apples to oranges) but i believe the #1 (http://letsgokings.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1) center position is more important on the Kings than the #1 (http://letsgokings.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1) d-man. What you're saying demonstrates a complete lack of real basic understanding of hockey, not to mention a complete lack of recognition of how the Kings play. There is no system in hockey where the No. 1 center is more important than the No. 1 defenseman, and I don't believe there has ever been such a system. Sometimes you have teams where your No. 1 center is way, way better than your No. 1 defenseman, and he ends up being more important because of disparity in talent, but what you're saying runs counter to the most basic tenets of hockey. And as far as the Kings are concerned, Doughty is more important to the Kings than he would would be on just about any other team. He is the Kings' engine. The breakouts, the possession, everything the Kings are about starts with Doughty. Especially in the playoffs. I realize that there are lots of people on this board who don't understand just how good he is because much of what he does is not reflected in stats and much of what he does so well is fairly subtle unless you know what to look for. But you talk to knowledgeable hockey fans of other teams and they know how truly great he is. That's not taking anything away from Kopitar, but Doughty is in a class of his own.

VCRW
February 23rd, 2016, 11:12 AM
Let's try again. You made a statement about Doughty being best player in the world. I want evidence. You can't find them. Who is pathetic?

http://www.latimes.com/sports/sportsnow/la-sp-sn-kings-darryl-sutter-drew-doughty-20160218-story.html

Sutter calls him the best defenseman he has ever seen. That's a pretty good start.

VCRW
February 23rd, 2016, 11:15 AM
I hope he will and Kopitar takes Selke and at the end both take the cup.

What i question here are statements about Doughty - best player in NHL. Not by Kings fans opinion, but by other, more relevant sources.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nhl/2016/02/11/drew-doughty-norris-trophy-erik-karlsson/80203552/

Gargamel33
February 23rd, 2016, 11:16 AM
What you're saying demonstrates a complete lack of real basic understanding of hockey, not to mention a complete lack of recognition of how the Kings play. There is no system in hockey where the No. 1 center is more important than the No. 1 defenseman, and I don't believe there has ever been such a system. Sometimes you have teams where your No. 1 center is way, way better than your No. 1 defenseman, and he ends up being more important because of disparity in talent, but what you're saying runs counter to the most basic tenets of hockey. And as far as the Kings are concerned, Doughty is more important to the Kings than he would would be on just about any other team. He is the Kings' engine. The breakouts, the possession, everything the Kings are about starts with Doughty. Especially in the playoffs. I realize that there are lots of people on this board who don't understand just how good he is because much of what he does is not reflected in stats and much of what he does so well is fairly subtle unless you know what to look for. But you talk to knowledgeable hockey fans of other teams and they know how truly great he is. That's not taking anything away from Kopitar, but Doughty is in a class of his own.

So he is the best in the world in things that no one can see, not even those that give award to the best defenseman in the league. Good one.

So now we are back at best defenseman or are you still looking for best player in the league statements?

Gargamel33
February 23rd, 2016, 11:18 AM
http://www.latimes.com/sports/sportsnow/la-sp-sn-kings-darryl-sutter-drew-doughty-20160218-story.html

Sutter calls him the best defenseman he has ever seen. That's a pretty good start.

His own coach...and ONLY best defenseman, not best player. And by the way Sutter said the same for Kopitar, but doesn't count right?

Gargamel33
February 23rd, 2016, 11:21 AM
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nhl/2016/02/11/drew-doughty-norris-trophy-erik-karlsson/80203552/

Can you guys read? Statement was Doughty is the best player in Nhl. You are showing articles that argue he should get his first Norris. So he is just in conversation for best defenseman. Faaaar away from best player in Nhl.

Don't make statements you can't support.

VCRW
February 23rd, 2016, 11:27 AM
His own coach...and ONLY best defenseman, not best player. And by the way Sutter said the same for Kopitar, but doesn't count right?

When discussing the best player ever, some people say it's Gretzky, some say Mario, but I have always believed it's Bobby Orr. With that in mind, I read Sutter's description of Doughty as the ultimate superlative.

santiclaws
February 23rd, 2016, 11:29 AM
So he is the best in the world in things that no one can see, not even those that give award to the best defenseman in the league. Good one.

So now we are back at best defenseman or are you still looking for best player in the league statements?
NHL coaches can see it. Let me guess, you're going to argue that NHL coaches don't know what they're talking about? And I said he is "arguably" the best player in the world - look up what that means. You could certainly make a pretty compelling argument that the best defenseman in the NHL is the best player in the league. Second, "those that give the award to the best defenseman" are a bunch of writers who have no qualifications and are often completely, totally and entirely clueless, like yourself.

Don't bother responding, I am done with you.

VCRW
February 23rd, 2016, 11:34 AM
Can you guys read? Statement was Doughty is the best player in Nhl. You are showing articles that argue he should get his first Norris. So he is just in conversation for best defenseman. Faaaar away from best player in Nhl.

Don't make statements you can't support.

No one is trying to win an argument with you. There is no point in trying to change your mind about your belief in Kopitar and that's fine. But your opinion has no more validity than those who believe Doughty is the top player in the game. There are no awards in Kopi's living room to prove your point either.

gretzky99
February 23rd, 2016, 12:09 PM
Why do people here always revert to "you have no real understanding of the game". Maybe it's just that their opinion is different. I've been watching hockey for 30+ years. Enough with the "basic understanding" crap.
Until someone can prove there is a "basic understanding of hockey" that everyone agrees upon that argument just makes you look like a conceited ***hole.

santiclaws
February 23rd, 2016, 12:29 PM
why do people here always revert to "you have no real understanding of the game". Maybe it's just that their opinion is different. I've been watching hockey for 30+ years. Enough with the "basic understanding" crap.
Until someone can prove there is a "basic understanding of hockey" that everyone agrees upon that argument just makes you look like a conceited ***hole.
ok.

gretzky99
February 23rd, 2016, 12:35 PM
The difference being those things have proof. Your version of "basic hockey knowledge" does not.

Mondo Blando
February 23rd, 2016, 12:50 PM
I just don't see that about Doughty. Where are all those praises, Norris awards, articles, coach statements, reporter stories, stats that support Doughty as the best player in the world? Maybe Doughty is overrated by Kings fans and the rest of the world just doesn't see what you see?

Only posts to personally attack those that criticize Kopitar, fairly or not.

Doesn't understand Doughty's quality.

Sorry, you have zero credibility here.

Mondo Blando
February 23rd, 2016, 12:59 PM
Why do people here always revert to "you have no real understanding of the game". Maybe it's just that their opinion is different. I've been watching hockey for 30+ years. Enough with the "basic understanding" crap.
Until someone can prove there is a "basic understanding of hockey" that everyone agrees upon that argument just makes you look like a conceited ***hole.

Problem is gretz, while you are thoughtful and well opinonated on any number of topics, you fly in the face of commonly held truths about the game when it comes to Kopitar. He not only gets the benefit of every doubt, you have stretched beyond reason to to excuse or deflect in the most basic and obvious criticisms. It makes it look like you are far more interested in defending the indefensible than being realistic.

I know that I have made it personal at times, and I apologize for that, but damn, it is absolutely maddening to have to argue even the most basic points that a reason able person would concede to in these discussions.

KINGS17
February 23rd, 2016, 01:47 PM
i'm sorry people, but a Selke two-way center that leads your team in scoring 8 straight years is more rare than a #1 (http://letsgokings.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1) d-man. Kopitar is the only one.

Kopitar won the Selke?

gretzky99
February 23rd, 2016, 01:51 PM
I just don't agree that in the Kings system the #1 (http://letsgokings.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1) d-man is more important than the #1 (http://letsgokings.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1) center. It's not about Kopitar, it's about seeing the center position as being central to the system. I understand what the d-man does vs what the center does and I see the 200 foot center as being more important.

KINGS17
February 23rd, 2016, 02:34 PM
when discussing the best player ever, some people say it's gretzky, some say mario, but i have always believed it's bobby orr. With that in mind, i read sutter's description of doughty as the ultimate superlative.

ainec!

gretzky99
February 23rd, 2016, 02:54 PM
I know Kopitar hasn't won a Selke. I mistyped, although I think he deserved one two years ago (Doughty got screwed at least once for the Norris too).

adgy-san
February 23rd, 2016, 03:17 PM
There's a reason Lombardi's philosophy has always been to build from the back end out.

And it's not because centers are more important than defensemen.

Histiking
February 23rd, 2016, 03:21 PM
I know Kopitar hasn't won a Selke. I mistyped, although I think he deserved one two years ago (Doughty got screwed at least once for the Norris too).

It's Belke, Butt-Selke