The Dark Knight Rises -- spoiler discussion

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Originally Posted by Dr. Naysay

No no no no no no.... just ONE SCENE. and maybe it wasn't a green screen.... I just "know" he wasn't there with the other actors in the scene.

When he's weeping at Bruce's grave... it's a stand in when he's got his back to the camera and when we see the reverse shot he's either in a studio with a green screen of the Wayne Manor grounds behind him. It
s a total pick-up.

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Ok...I might allow that. Maybe. And if it is, yes...it was a pick up scene.

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Originally Posted by jerseydevil

Ok...I might allow that. Maybe. And if it is, yes...it was a pick up scene.

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And the only reason I pointed it out was to suggest that details of the story/plot of the film may have been influenced by things like actors availability, studio concerns, marketing concerns etc etc etc.

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Originally Posted by jerseydevil

I am posting without reading too much here. Want to unload my thoughts first. But Doc...you are confusing the 'Glenn Close on Damages/film her from another room with really soft lighting with all kinds of grease on the lens' technique on Michael Caine's Alfred as green screen. You are just wrong here kid.

Ok, so total honesty. Initial reaction upon viewing...completely cohesive film that avoided the stop/start pitfalls of pt 2. Truly an epic take that tied all three movies together into a nice little package and showed the way to take a superhero and do an epic take that could possibly stand the test of time as the 'Gone With The Wind' of cape flicks. I thought I had a LOT of crow to eat as far as my anger towards Nolan and the Nolanistas...

Then the lights went up. And I started thinking. And the realization set in that this really should be called the Prestige 2 because it's a house of cards that hinges on smoke & mirrors. Before I get accused of critical nit-picking please be aware that the ground rules were laid down by the film makers. Ultra realistic take on Batman etc. in the real world. If those are the parameters that you set you need to make sure that all of your stiches are tightly sewn. Especially if you are going to take 2 hrs 46 minutes to tell your story.

Where to begin. First off, the opening airplane sequence is the movie in a microcosm. Almost as good a set piece and example of movie magic as you could possibly imagine...based in half thought out plot logic which is shortcut by the desire to be bright and shiny. Why was the CIA trying to find out about Bane and what were they trying to find out? Why he wears the mask? Well, there was a pretty important plot point that was never truly addressed. The man wore what looked to be a very inhibiting very constrictive mask that apparently kept his horrible injuries(another oft alluded to yet never truly described) at bay. Like I said, indicitive of the 'well, we are telling you so that should be good enough' nature of the less adaptable to a realistic take nature of things.
Huge plot problem #2...characters who are introduced solely to advance the plot. The financial guy who wants to take over Wayne Industries...wait what? Talk about barely sketched out. And Talia al Ghul...also a plot device and not a character. Did anyone else bristle when she and Bruce inexpicably come in out of the rain and just seem to start macking simply because there is absolutely nothing else to do. No chemistry, no sexual spark. Same as the androgynous relationship between cat and the bat. Grown adults wearing kink outfits and the Nuns of the Catholic school of my youth exuded more sexual energy.Ewwww. There was more sexual chemistry between Catwoman and her 'friend' who cozened up behind her at one point. I'm sorry, but Catwoman's empassioned pleas to Bats to 'save himself' just rang so friggin hollow. And why the great plot...Bankrupting Wayne, bringing Bane in...couldn't Talia have just taken over Wayne Corp and started the bomb? I won't even get into Matthew Modine's less than necessary characterrrrrrrrplot device.
another thing that did not stand the revisit once I walked out of the theater...the constant 'shamalayan/memento reveal/retrofit' of the Bane/Talia/Ras origin triangle. It seemed so organic as I was being sonically/visually bombarded, yet, once I started thinking about it the constant reshuffling was ridiculous and overdone. You lose the power of the 'reveal' when you keep going back to that plot device and shuffling the deck. An example of Nolan overrelying on a trick he used to better effect in smaller more personal movies. Matter of fact, i think that may be the big problem here(hell, Inception too). Nolan tried to apply all his rules and tricks to a movie that is just too big to be constricted in that way. A near 3 hour movie about a guy who dresses like a Bat is bound to have logic flaws that you just can't fix. A lot of times it felt to me that Nolan got stymied by this concept. And if he couldn't explain it away he just swept it under the carpet. Well...we all have learned to look under the carpet by now.
I recall reading someone griping about how the guy who plays a cop on Grimm being a cop in this movie was distracting. Well, that was a constant distraction. Minor parts filled with recognizable faces. The guy from Game of Thrones(CIA agent), Franco from Rescue Me(special forces)Thomas Lennon(the cartilage dr.)the guy from Star Trek who threw JGL down into the gravel pit...need I go on. Whatsammata, can't have just anybody in your movie Nolan. Is every part THAT important? It was like a Rob Zombie collection of b-movie faces. Totally distracting.
Oh, and I am sure that hanging someone upright and punching his vertabrae back in would completely heal a broken spine. No medicine needed.

Things I liked, and you may think I didn't like a lot...but you'd be wrong. The view from the hole in Santa Prisca prison. A nice call out to the view from down in the BatCave when a young Bruce Wayne fell down the shaft.
The Rescue Dawn portion of the movie where Batman ROSE out of the prison.
sorry, I am dissecting the flick and I can't specifically think of anything particular...I do think the movie was very good, but I am discussing the shortcomings and I am stuck in that mode.

I liked JGL's character...but at times it was too on-the-nose. And, the Robin thing at the end almost made me walk out. Grayson...Tim...something not so pandering would have made more sense. In Fact, the ending seemed so horribly condescending to the whole trilogy...The auto pilot point was SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO hammered. Did ANYONE not see that coming? Insincere...party of one.

Oh yeah, Gary Oldman...well, I am biased...cause I love the man. Still...well done.

Another HUGE irritation, practically EVERONE knew Bruce Wayne was the Batman...dude...lose the growl.
I understand why there is so little BATMAN in the Nolan movies. Unless he is using him in a chase scene, whether it's the (apparently really easy to learn how to ride) Batbike or in the Tumbler or Bat...he has no idea how to stage fight scenes. I have seen Cosplay outside of the Halls of Comicon that looked or natural. Once again, I think that's indicitive of Nolan playing in a bigger sandbox than he is comfy in.

I KNOW it doesn't seem it. I really enjoyed this. I really did. And it seems I am being way critical...but Nolan set the bar...I am just responding. I am just gonna throw this up...I cannot reread/proofread...there is just too much here. I apologize everyone, but there were a lot of thoughts here.

EDIT: Kingsqueen just reminded me that Bane's erudite echoing speech pattern was completely distracting. So he spent years in what appears to be an israeli/mediterannean prison and comes out with a professorial ENGLISH accent. Tom Hardy deserved a lot better for all the heavy lifting he was forced to do. And...did he get undone by the removal of his mask...nope. He got blown away by bike cannons...ooops. way to Boba Fett your way out of a problem.

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Nice post. So where would you consider this movie among the trilogy?

I do agree with some of your points. I do think there were a few things that were glossed over for time. It's important to remember that the original script for this film was 400 pages long. I would guess that certain things like Bruce and Talia's romance and Daggett's attempt to control Wayne Enterprises would have been covered in further detail. I also agree that Modine was unnecessary.

As far as Robin goes, I admire the ballsiness of Nolan on that one because whenever you change a character that drastically, you're gonna hear it from people. I do like that he seemed to be a combination of different Robins and was in a way raised by Bruce. Through the orphanage.

The Batman voice was better in this film than the last one, I thought. It's funny, when I watched Batman Begins again I noticed how much less growly his voice is in that movie. It's way overdone in The Dark Knight and then it's kind of in between in this movie. The only part that made me laugh was at the end when he had finally beaten Bane and was trying to get information out of him. "WHERE'S THE TRIGGER!! WHERE IS IT!!! WHERE'S THE TRIGGER!!!" Though I did like the reversal of the "you'll have my permission to die" line.

I'm glad you brought up the extras in the movie being played by known actors. Two other guys you forgot to mention were Quin from Dexter and the guy who played the president. While distracting at first, I was glad for it. One of my beefs with The Dark Knight was the horrible acting by some of the extras. The whole scene were Dent addresses the media about Batman turning himself in. The boat scene at the end. A couple other parts too. If it comes down to horrible actors or guys I've seen here and there before, I'll go with the latter.

Tom Hardy's accent wasn't English by the way. Or at least, that's not the intention. TDKR: Tom Hardy Reveals That Bane's Accent Is Based On "The King of the Gypsies"

Glad you liked the movie overall. I did say before that I thought the second viewing was much better. There is just too much audio and visual stimulation in this movie to catch everything the first time. Especially if you try to make the connections with the previous two movies.

Edit: Also forgot to mention that I agree that Nolan asks us to suspend our disbelief a little more in this movie than the last two.

Too many "known" actors as extras? I guess I don't watch enough TV. LOL.

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Originally Posted by NastiMarvasti

Nice post. So where would you consider this movie among the trilogy?

I do agree with some of your points. I do think there were a few things that were glossed over for time. It's important to remember that the original script for this film was 400 pages long. I would guess that certain things like Bruce and Talia's romance and Daggett's attempt to control Wayne Enterprises would have been covered in further detail. I also agree that Modine was unnecessary.

As far as Robin goes, I admire the ballsiness of Nolan on that one because whenever you change a character that drastically, you're gonna hear it from people. I do like that he seemed to be a combination of different Robins and was in a way raised by Bruce. Through the orphanage.

The Batman voice was better in this film than the last one, I thought. It's funny, when I watched Batman Begins again I noticed how much less growly his voice is in that movie. It's way overdone in The Dark Knight and then it's kind of in between in this movie. The only part that made me laugh was at the end when he had finally beaten Bane and was trying to get information out of him. "WHERE'S THE TRIGGER!! WHERE IS IT!!! WHERE'S THE TRIGGER!!!" Though I did like the reversal of the "you'll have my permission to die" line.

I'm glad you brought up the extras in the movie being played by known actors. Two other guys you forgot to mention were Quin from Dexter and the guy who played the president. While distracting at first, I was glad for it. One of my beefs with The Dark Knight was the horrible acting by some of the extras. The whole scene were Dent addresses the media about Batman turning himself in. The boat scene at the end. A couple other parts too. If it comes down to horrible actors or guys I've seen here and there before, I'll go with the latter.

Tom Hardy's accent wasn't English by the way. Or at least, that's not the intention. TDKR: Tom Hardy Reveals That Bane's Accent Is Based On "The King of the Gypsies"

Glad you liked the movie overall. I did say before that I thought the second viewing was much better. There is just too much audio and visual stimulation in this movie to catch everything the first time. Especially if you try to make the connections with the previous two movies.

Edit: Also forgot to mention that I agree that Nolan asks us to suspend our disbelief a little more in this movie than the last two.

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Yeah...Nolan wanted disbelief suspended because he knew this was the weakest link...yet the BEST of the trilogy. I would have liked to see a fourth movie simply because he may have been able to wrestle away the mess of the WHOLE thing. Yes...Quinn and William Devane...even more distractions. And it's no reason for thanks...get a goddamned good faceless actor who doesn't distract.

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Originally Posted by NastiMarvasti

Nolan asks us to suspend our disbelief a little more in this movie than the last two.

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hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahhahahhaha

Saw it today again and among the 'actors who looked familiar' for me was Bane's #2... from "No Ordinary Family" (Josh Stewart?) and the Army Captain squad guy who doesn't last very long before getting a tour of the bridge via rope.

On the topic of 'Alfred at the end', it looked seamless to me, so unless someone mentions it on the BD commentary, there's no way you can convince me that any of that scene was "off". :)

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Originally Posted by chaingunsofdoom

Saw it today again and among the 'actors who looked familiar' for me was Bane's #2... from "No Ordinary Family" (Josh Stewart?) and the Army Captain squad guy who doesn't last very long before getting a tour of the bridge via rope.

On the topic of 'Alfred at the end', it looked seamless to me, so unless someone mentions it on the BD commentary, there's no way you can convince me that any of that scene was "off". :)

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Bane's #2 was the guy from "the Collector"...good movie

All I know is that it was thoroughly enjoyable seeing Franco get riddled with bullets.

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Originally Posted by Dr. Naysay

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahhahahhaha

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Not as funny as your inability to admit you're wrong in the Alfred argument.