25 Games of Raffi Torres

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Originally Posted by Dr. Naysay

If players like Chris Simon or Bryan Marchement, for example instead of your weak Stevens analogy, get suspended 8,9, 10 or even 13 times (Marchment) then what the **** are we talking about JD? There are literally thousands of hockey players in the world who would bring more skill and more talent and more fun to the game than these kinds of players and to argue that they deserve 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th + chances while ALSO saying that you care about player safety and cleaning up the game is a ****ing joke.

These guys understand that their place in the league is indelibly linked to their ability to cripple opponents either through force or fear. Scott Stevens was an award winning All Star defenceman. What has Raffi Torres won? What does he bring to his team other than the ability to inflict pain on the opponent? I'm NOT advocating the elimination of body hits or fighting or any of the violence that I enjoy in the sport. I have no problem with hits like the one Stevens leveled on Kariya or Lindros.

What Torres did was not comparable.

Hossa didn't "have his head down" and he wasn't "admiring his pass"... he had the puck stripped off his stick and he was reacting to the play and Torres didn't have to hit him, he didn't have to hit him that hard and he certainly didn't have to follow through the way he did.

Penalizing teams for bringing in guys like Torres is the only way that teams will actually stop bringing in guys like Torres. Punishing the guy who makes $1.75 Million a year specifically because he plays the way he does won't stop him from playing like that. I'm sure Torres would rather make $1.75 - his suspension and get to be in the NHL rather than do whatever a guy like him would have to do for a living if he wasn't in the NHL.



You're coming off like a completely paranoid Devils fan by constantly dragging Stevens into this. There were plenty of players to criticize in his era that are far better comparisons of the kind of player we're talking about.

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Could have used that sarcasm font for the eighth or ninth chance remark. And, I think eventually, players like Simon wind up out of the league. I just can't see penalizing a team for a player unless you can read their intentions clearly. Meaning, suppose a team realizes they need the ever ellusive grit, and they talk to a Torres and he assures them he will clean up his play. Especially a team like Phoenix, who isn't dealing from a position of strength and can't afford to turn their nose up at anyone. Their intentions were good, the PLAYER reneged on his word. I think you are overlegislating at that point. You are getting into a far too arbitrary area here. And i'm not paranoid it's just that everyone is out to get me.

And really, i just like to bring up Scott Stevens and those hits because they were EPIC. And I have been trying to shoehorn them in for a while. Where is that damnable sarcasm font????

I agree that if you start penalizing teams it can get dicey...

That's why you let the team penalties start kicking in at the 4th suspension.

A guy gets warned/fined/suspended once or twice... ok fine... mistakes happen.

By the time a guy picks up his third or fourth? Stop it.

The Coyotes owe the Blackhawks a draft pick.

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Originally Posted by Dr. Naysay

I agree that if you start penalizing teams it can get dicey...

That's why you let the team penalties start kicking in at the 4th suspension.

A guy gets warned/fined/suspended once or twice... ok fine... mistakes happen.

By the time a guy picks up his third or fourth? Stop it.

The Coyotes owe the Blackhawks a draft pick.

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Their is a germ of wisdom in what you say...still, maybe a team is only responsible for the baggage a player has while under contract or something, but that won't satisfy you. It's a bad situation really...I do feel for Chicago/Hossa but I also am removed enough to know that, given Phoenix's ownership situation it's a surprise that they do not have more players like Torres who a lot of teams would not touch. I know I will find NO sympathy from you for Phoenix but you do have to factor that in in my opinion. Compared to Chicago are they not ALREADY penalized by the fact that they are laboring for years under rules that other teams do not face? How can you justify penalizing them for having a player that they might not sign if they were under healthier management.

JD, Hossa bears no responsibility on that play at all - the puck was poke checked off his stick as he was leaving the blueline, and simply turned back immediately to see where the puck went - of course he is going to be puck focused on a potentially dangerous turnover. This is nowhere near the case of a player failing to keep his head up, or admiring a pass a little too long - it happened in an instant as Hossa was trying to sort it out.

Ironically I think that helps part of Torres' case because that hit was borderline late, maybe a fraction of a second late if anything. If the hit was clean, shoulder to shoulder, it would have been a marginal call. I don't buy Shanahan's "Torres one handed wave at the puck" theory, that stuff is instinctual to players. But the idiot lept and purposefully drove his shoulder into Hossa's head. And he has done it many, many, many times before for a variety of teams.

I mentioned 7-8 games when it happened, but I can completely understand the need for a poster boy to use against this kind of dangerous play. Torres is the pefect candidate - a repeat-repeat-repeat offender who has shown that he is incapable of learning from multiple disciplinary actions. If there was ever a guy to throw the book at, it's that guy. Let him rot.

Deserved. **** him. **** him in the neck.

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Originally Posted by Mondo Blando

JD, Hossa bears no responsibility on that play at all - the puck was poke checked off his stick as he was leaving the blueline, and simply turned back immediately to see where the puck went - of course he is going to be puck focused on a potentially dangerous turnover. This is nowhere near the case of a player failing to keep his head up, or admiring a pass a little too long - it happened in an instant as Hossa was trying to sort it out.

Ironically I think that helps part of Torres' case because that hit was borderline late, maybe a fraction of a second late if anything. If the hit was clean, shoulder to shoulder, it would have been a marginal call. I don't buy Shanahan's "Torres one handed wave at the puck" theory, that stuff is instinctual to players. But the idiot lept and purposefully drove his shoulder into Hossa's head. And he has done it many, many, many times before for a variety of teams.

I mentioned 7-8 games when it happened, but I can completely understand the need for a poster boy to use against this kind of dangerous play. Torres is the pefect candidate - a repeat-repeat-repeat offender who has shown that he is incapable of learning from multiple disciplinary actions. If there was ever a guy to throw the book at, it's that guy. Let him rot.

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Well said...I disagree about the responsibilty of Hossa, but not as much as I may have when I started this argument. And I apologize also if it was ever construed that I was coming to Torres' defense.

From Down Goes Brown.



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Down Goes Brown: A brief history of playoff violence

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Originally Posted by Dr. Naysay

The Coyotes should lose a draft pick.

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And get relocated to Quebec City.

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Originally Posted by jerseydevil

That's what I was trying to tell you...I do agree with you about Torres. That is not what I was arguing. But if you skate around with your head down like Hossa did any hit becomes potentially dangerous.

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Unless Hossa decided he wasn't going to turn, he wasn't going to avoid that hit, regardless if his head was "up" or not.

Let me start out by saying that, yes, I thought the Torres hit was dirty. Yes, I thought he should be suspended. Yes, I thought is deserved a long suspension. And, yes, I hope Hossa is doing ok and is able to continue his career without any ill effects as a result of the Torres hit.

Now... If Im being honest with myself, I know that the chances of the Coyotes playing in Phoenix past this season are very, very, slim. This season is probably my last chance to see my team win the Stanley Cup, or at the very least, have the thrill/excitement of watching my team play past the first round for the first time EVER. So, if a nasty hit by a 3rd liner, on one of the Hawks star players, gives the Coyotes a better shot of winning the Cup... then Im thrilled! If no Hossa means the Coyotes have a better shot of advancing because of that hit, then Im happy. Im no longer worried about whether the rest of the league thinks the Coyotes, or their fans, are dirty, classless, or delusional for defending Torres. All I care about are the Coyotes chances now, because chances are, there is no next season.

Some (Dr Naysay) believe the suspension was too short, or that the Coyotes organization should be penalized $ or draft picks, and to that I say, sure! I really could care less if Quebec City or Seattle or Las Vegas or [insert Canadian city], loses a 3rd rounder next season.

I, and many other Coyotes fans Im guessing, would be signing a different tune if the ownership issues in Phoenix were different. And if the Coyotes somehow pull out of this mess and stay in Phoenix, then Ill come back here and say "Neverming" to everything I just wrote. Until that time comes, I realize that the number of games I have to enjoy my hockey team are probably in the single digits, and honestly, I probably wont be back to watching the NHL for a couple years after the Coyotes leave. So if a dirty hit means I get an extra 4, or 8, or 12 games to watch my beloved Coyotes play, then GREAT!

BTW, does anyone know where I can reach Tanya Harding in case this series goes 7 games. I may need a knee or two taken out.



Flame away!