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Thread: Jonathan Bernier traded to Toronto, fights, pulls a Quick on a dump in.

  1. #201
    jt
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    Quote Originally Posted by hokiecat View Post
    Actually I remember you suggesting/hoping that we would get a 1st/2nd and a top 6 player or a top-9 + first.
    http://letsgokings.com/f4/jonathan_b...ml#post2763644
    http://letsgokings.com/f4/jonathan_b...ml#post2763557
    I wish we could gotten a top-6 and a 1st/second . I'm always wary of the talking heads over-hyping players. They did the same thing with Voynov aka he's a 6 million dollar player. First off, he's not bionic and second Slava was still a RFA with the Kings controlling years.

    JT pretty much nailed the return on the head-- a decent 3rd line forward and a 2nd round pick, plus an inexpensive backup goalie. For all of Bernier's pedigree he fetched the expected return for a guy with great promise but also who was drafted 7 years ago and has not taken the starters job. Dean did a very good job of getting a nice set of players/picks in return but he didn't fleece anyone for a first and a top-6 forward.
    Well, in fairness I was a little low because of the cap space they got. But we don't know whether that's worth anything at all until DL uses it (or not).

    Quote Originally Posted by aaron View Post
    Is he competing with King? Clifford? (he's 2,3 years older than both)
    Is he a better prospect than Toffoli?
    I legit don't know.
    I think he isn't exactly competing directly with anyone. I think with Richardson gone if he shows he belongs then they all have roster spots (ahead of Vey and Pearson), although if ANYONE loses a spot I think it'd be Nolan.

    Quote Originally Posted by gretzky99 View Post
    i was hoping for a little more established top-6 player. and if not, then something like Read and a first would have been nice. i threw around names like Couturier and Grabner and Okposo, but in those cases, i was expecting that Martinez would have to be part of a deal like that.

    at no point did JT say Bernier would bring back 3 assets, let alone the cap space.
    It's not about the number of assets, it's about the value of the assets and (not to say I told you so) but except for the cap space, that's exactly the value I had it pegged at. And the value of the cap space is up in the air right now. It could be worth a 1st rounder all by itself if he can bring back Scuderi because of it.

    plus the 2nd round pick which should be mid-round at worst.
    Got a crystal ball? Who woulda thought the Kings 2nd rounder last summer woulda been the last pick of the draft?

    i think mid/late first round picks are overvalued. do we really think 15 spots in the draft is worth more than Scrivens and $500K off the cap and the 2nd?
    It all depends on what DL does with that cap space. If they spend the entire season $500k or more below the cap, that part of the trade was worth nothing at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by gretzky99 View Post
    yes and yes. i think Frattin and Scrivens is better than a 2nd and 3rd, not to mention the cap space.
    I call BS on this. There isn't a single GM in the NHL who would trade a 2nd for Frattin and Scrivens, much less a 2nd AND a 3rd. The cap space? Well, we'll see about that.

    and yes, i think Frattin, Scrivens, 2nd and cap space is better than Conacher and 4th. i don't think Conacher is that great. i think Frattin is far better for the Kings than Conacher. i watched Conacher play - he was the beneficiary of playing with St. Louis and Stamkos in TB.
    Ok, well we'll just have to disagree on Conacher...and time will tell.

  2. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by aaron View Post
    2 dimes and a nickel for a quarter
    frattin is ahl/nhl borderline, and ufa 2015.
    scrivens will back up for a year for cheap (ufa next year)
    a mid to late 2nd rounder. (leafs are young and improving. they will be a playoff team one of the 2 years)

    Goalies are cheap these days. What are you going to do.
    Looking back, not a great return for a #11 overall selection
    We didn't trade the number 11 overall selection. We traded a backup goalie who has provided several years of service to the LA Kings.
    jom, roenick, Freezang and 3 others like this.

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    1st Scoring Line gretzky99's Avatar




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    Quote Originally Posted by jt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by hokiecat View Post
    Actually I remember you suggesting/hoping that we would get a 1st/2nd and a top 6 player or a top-9 + first.
    http://letsgokings.com/f4/jonathan_b...ml#post2763644
    http://letsgokings.com/f4/jonathan_b...ml#post2763557
    I wish we could gotten a top-6 and a 1st/second . I'm always wary of the talking heads over-hyping players. They did the same thing with Voynov aka he's a 6 million dollar player. First off, he's not bionic and second Slava was still a RFA with the Kings controlling years.

    JT pretty much nailed the return on the head-- a decent 3rd line forward and a 2nd round pick, plus an inexpensive backup goalie. For all of Bernier's pedigree he fetched the expected return for a guy with great promise but also who was drafted 7 years ago and has not taken the starters job. Dean did a very good job of getting a nice set of players/picks in return but he didn't fleece anyone for a first and a top-6 forward.
    Well, in fairness I was a little low because of the cap space they got. But we don't know whether that's worth anything at all until DL uses it (or not).

    Quote Originally Posted by aaron View Post
    Is he competing with King? Clifford? (he's 2,3 years older than both)
    Is he a better prospect than Toffoli?
    I legit don't know.
    I think he isn't exactly competing directly with anyone. I think with Richardson gone if he shows he belongs then they all have roster spots (ahead of Vey and Pearson), although if ANYONE loses a spot I think it'd be Nolan.

    Quote Originally Posted by gretzky99 View Post
    i was hoping for a little more established top-6 player. and if not, then something like Read and a first would have been nice. i threw around names like Couturier and Grabner and Okposo, but in those cases, i was expecting that Martinez would have to be part of a deal like that.

    at no point did JT say Bernier would bring back 3 assets, let alone the cap space.
    It's not about the number of assets, it's about the value of the assets and (not to say I told you so) but except for the cap space, that's exactly the value I had it pegged at. And the value of the cap space is up in the air right now. It could be worth a 1st rounder all by itself if he can bring back Scuderi because of it.

    plus the 2nd round pick which should be mid-round at worst.
    Got a crystal ball? Who woulda thought the Kings 2nd rounder last summer woulda been the last pick of the draft?

    i think mid/late first round picks are overvalued. do we really think 15 spots in the draft is worth more than Scrivens and $500K off the cap and the 2nd?
    It all depends on what DL does with that cap space. If they spend the entire season $500k or more below the cap, that part of the trade was worth nothing at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by gretzky99 View Post
    yes and yes. i think Frattin and Scrivens is better than a 2nd and 3rd, not to mention the cap space.
    I call BS on this. There isn't a single GM in the NHL who would trade a 2nd for Frattin and Scrivens, much less a 2nd AND a 3rd. The cap space? Well, we'll see about that.

    and yes, i think Frattin, Scrivens, 2nd and cap space is better than Conacher and 4th. i don't think Conacher is that great. i think Frattin is far better for the Kings than Conacher. i watched Conacher play - he was the beneficiary of playing with St. Louis and Stamkos in TB.
    Ok, well we'll just have to disagree on Conacher...and time will tell.
    We clearly disagree on values of draft picks. Birdman thinks Frattin himself is worth a first. I know he's not a GM but I'm not alone in my thinking.

  4. #204
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    Oh, I know you're not alone in your thinking. But groupthink isn't right just because everyone of them thinks the same thing. I defy either of you to find a single respected hockey person (McKenzie, Drager, LeBrun...) who thinks Frattin is worth a 1st - even the very last 1st of the round.

    And if DL could trade Frattin for a 1st rounder he needs to do it RIGHT NOW. I mean this second.
    jom and AngelEyes like this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gretzky99 View Post
    Yes, they retained $500K in cap space. Technically, it has to be split between two players since neither guys'll has a cap hit over $1M.
    Checked capgeek.com 122,500 for Scrivens and 370,000 for Frattin. Weird how it shows it on Toronto's cap page, but it still has our cap at 6.1 with out the 500k added in.

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    Dean got good value in return. At worst, Frattin is a good 3rd liner with some size with the 2nd and a backup.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jt View Post
    It all depends on what DL does with that cap space. If they spend the entire season $500k or more below the cap, that part of the trade was worth nothing at all.
    Disagree. If DL spends exactly to the cap (not considering the $500K) he still has $500K of flexibility. That space from Toronto should be considered the FIRST $500K he spends.

    Spending it is not the primary value of it. HAVING it is the value.
    Last edited by RagBone; June 23rd, 2013 at 04:17 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jt View Post
    Oh, I know you're not alone in your thinking. But groupthink isn't right just because everyone of them thinks the same thing. I defy either of you to find a single respected hockey person (McKenzie, Drager, LeBrun...) who thinks Frattin is worth a 1st - even the very last 1st of the round.

    And if DL could trade Frattin for a 1st rounder he needs to do it RIGHT NOW. I mean this second.
    I agree he's not worth a first yet - I would say Frattin is definitely worth a second, though.

    LeBrun said Lombardi did very well. I think it's a little difficult to judge the trade since there was only one pick and the cap space issue.

    We won't really know until we see what Frattin and Scrivens do. But, IF Frattin plays top 9 and scores 15 goals and Scrivens plays 15-20 games and plays well, there can be no complaints.

    I think it's a great trade for where the Kings are. They get a back up they don't have to spend anything on, a top 9 player that fits their style, a second round pick (that Lombardi loves) and enough cap space to potentially keep Scuderi.

  9. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by RagBone View Post
    Disagree. If DL spends exactly to the cap (not considering the $500K) he still has $500K of flexibility. That space from Toronto should be considered the FIRST $500K he spends.
    That makes no sense. He only needs that cap space if he exceeds the standard cap. If he doesn't exceed it he didn't need it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ranma View Post


    There we go people. For those of you saying Read wasn't a fit because he was small. Or so and so had to big because he doesn't fit Kings style...blah blah. This is what the Kings need...speed. And I assume not soft means a bit of an edge , in which the Kings desperately need too. I haven't seen any of this Frattin (aside from his breakaway fail in game 7 against Boston that would have iced the game.) But the reason the Kings had such a horrendous time in the playoffs breaking out of their zone was because the opposing defenders weren't afraid of being burned with speed. Does lumbering Penner or Dwight King instill fear in opposing defenses?

    So I hope this acquisition works out. I still would have preferred Read but oh well. On the plus side for Bernier, he doesn't have to endure the Philly fans. They would have quickly turned on him after one year if he didn't produce a deep run in the playoffs.

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