Thread: Osgood Retires.

Hey Doc, just to clarify, what do you define as a HOF goaltender? Do you have a clear-cut line in which Player A who makes it and Player B who doesn't are separated?

Originally Posted by Mondo Blando

Hey Doc, just to clarify, what do you define as a HOF goaltender? Do you have a clear-cut line in which Player A who makes it and Player B who doesn't are separated?

Not really... but I probably have a much "stricter" standard than most.

Originally Posted by Dr. Naysay

Not really... but I probably have a much "stricter" standard than most.

Its one of those "I can't define it, but I know it when I see it" kind of things? I can buy that.

And not that you asked, but IMO the best goaltender I have ever seen, better than both prime Roy and prime Brodeur was a prime Eddie Belfour.

He may have only won one Cup, but now that was a dominant goaltender.

Belfour was the most fun goalie to watch in my opinion.

Like I said, what should keep Osgood out of the HOF is that there were several far better goalies in his era who didn't make it in.

Slightly off topic but some of the greatest goalie performances I've ever seen:

Richter in Game 3 of the '96 World Cup.
Cujo in the entire '97 series against Dallas.
Hasek in the '98 Olympic semis against Canada.
Belfour in Game 5 against the Wings in '95.
Giguere in the '03 playoffs.
Thomas is the '11 Cup Final.

Honorable mention to Jon Casey for what he was able to do in the '96 playoffs under the circumstances.

Hall of Fame goaltenders are not told to pack their bags because their team is trying to one-up the position with an aging vet that may be hungry enough to win a Cup that that vet has never won; and, are then brought back to try and "stabilize it" because the same team has had their run ended of bringing in Cup-less vets on the backside of their career and are trying to bridge a gap while (finally) developing from within.

Originally Posted by NastiMarvasti

...Antti Niemi has also won a cup.

this a almost a red herring.

i get the stacked team bit, but how did Niemi show in Act II? for one, the Kings took his ass apart.

that said, the book hasn't closed on Niemi either.

Originally Posted by Dr. Naysay

The argument that the Hall is "compromised" and therefore Osgood "deserves" to further compromise it is not compelling.

and neither are the tangential - "not if they haven't recognized _________ yet" arguments for that matter.

truth is, very few of us really understand the position all that well, and even fewer understand the criteria for their induction into the HOF... i mean, there will literally be 12 pages in a PGT or "thoughts" thread dedicated to the argument as to whether a certain goal was soft or not.

the FACT is, Chris Osgood was a winner. PERIOD. he shouldn't be penalized solely because he played for a great organization. are Hasek's Cups viewed the same? and do you give him 2? after all, his second was from the bench like someone felt compelled to mention about Chris's first.

what about Martin Brodeur? we will NEVER see him away from the Devils, and there are many who believe he was never as good as he appears to have been because of the team and system he played for/under... i think the word used most often is "fraud."

NOW LEMME ASK YOU ALL THIS.........

Is Evgeni Nabokov a potential Hall of Fame goaltender?

no idea why you chose Nabokov... i think the more compelling argument would have been Olaf Kolzig (who, by the way, i believe should be a HOFer).

first, i would say yes... the potential is there. i think the likelihood is around zero to none, but it can happen.

now let's look a little closer and compare both he and Osgood (which is what you're doing here)... and in particular, just the numbers for their last three playoff appearances respectively.


Chris Osgood (age: 31,35,36) - 47GP 30W 16L 2.02GAA .920%

- Stanley Cup (one decade after winning his first)

only roster carryovers - Lidstrom, Holmstrom, Draper, Maltby, McCarty
ALL players, including Chris Osgood were at least 35-years old.

that means, the team, save those 5 players, was completely overhauled. this included Chris being left unprotected for the waiver draft and his subsequent departure & return, and a complete change behind the bench.


and he won AGAIN... then he damn near won another one the following season.

yes, the Red Wings won a Cup while he was gone, but when Hasek and Cujo couldn't get it done any longer, who came back and did? riiiiiiiiiiiiiiight, Chris "mediocre" Osgood.



VS.


Evgeny Nabokov(age: 32,33,34) - 34gp 16W 18L 2.52 GAA .901%

2007-2010 - San Jose had 1 first and 2 2nd overall finishes, yet unable to
get past the 2nd round - including being upset in 1st round after winning
President's Trophy.

Sandiz Ozolstink, Rob Blake, Jeremy Roenick, and Scott Nichol were the ONLY 35+ year-olds to play for San Jose in that span… no i am not giving you the Claude Lemieux gag freebie.


young, highly talented, well coached (including a Red Wing ) and media darlings... for all intents and purposes, as "great" as the lauded Red Wings.

he is now (well, as of this Monday) 36-years old, hasn't played NHL hockey for a year, and has one year left on his contract with the Islanders.

on your FB page your suggestion leaned on the potential of his playing in Detroit…
i highly doubt that'll happen. i can't see the Red Wings looking to a 37-year old
netminder for longer than a season, let alone one without a history of winning when
it counts.

i think that "potential" window would be if he somehow ended up back in San Jose and won A cup in back to back Finals.




sure there were goaltenders as good or better than Osgood like; Richter, Cujo and Vanbiesbrouck, and personally, i think "Beezer" was probably the best of the lot. but Vanbiesbrouck also has the same problem Rogie Vachon has... nobody f***ing likes them.

again, the bottom line is, Chris Osgood was a winner. he may have never been great, but he has been grossly underrated in this thread.

Originally Posted by NastiMarvasti

You want stats? How about his .890 save% in the '04 playoffs? Not saying he was a POS but he was pretty mediocre. And sorry but you can't count 3 cups for him. One of them was won on the bench. Luongo could have won that cup too. Also, his '98 win was after giving up 3 center ice goals (one in overtime) in the playoffs on a team that was determined to win one for the injured Russians. Honestly, did he EVER strike fear in your heart? Did you ever once say, "We could win tonight, but damn they have Osgood"? Do you think he's more deserving of the other guys I listed? Does Dionne not belong in the Hall because he never won any cups? Wins and other stats are meaningless. I watched the guy play.

Nasti, do you wanna cherry pick more? ...Did you like..just go to Wikipedia and glance at the stats??

That 04 playoffs you are talking about...he played for the NUMBER 7 SEED ST. LOUIS BLUES...matched up against a heavily favored 2 seed San Jose sharks. A team that went to the Conference Finals. They lost in the first round 1-4 in 5 games.

I can cherry pick stats to make goalies look undeserving also and terrible also

Hey in 95 Hasek had a .863 SV% and a 3.49 GAA.
(Reality? He played 5 games and it was against NJ, the eventual cup champs. Funny how that can look REAL bad when you don't explain it right?)

in 92 Belfour had a .882 SV% and a 3.13 GAA

And forgive me but which of those TWO playoffs did he win the cup from the bench? YES he had a cup ring in 97, but guess what...all back ups and bench players get cup rings. Ken Dryden won a cup in 71 AS A BACK UP. DO you think when people bring up Ken Dryden and say "Phenomenal goalie, he won 6 cups" some jackass pipes up and says "well he didn't earn that won, he won it form the bench.."

Tony Esposito won 3 Vezinas, and is in the HOF, but his ONLY cup ring comes from 69 when he backed up Vachon. He never played a game in the playoffs, but he was dressed so he got a cup. Does that lessen is career achievements? Do people when they get introduced to "Tony Esposito, Stanley Cup Champion and 3 time Vezina winner" the guy says "oh well he didn't earn that cup."?

Back to Osgood however,

It was his 3rd year in the league, he had a rough regular season, split time with Vernon..and come playoffs Mike Vernon was the starter, and was playing OUT OF HIS MIND. He won MVP of the playoffs if I am not mistaken.

SO In the 2 series he ACTUALLY played in, which one did he not earn? The 98 when he played 22games, all of them in the finals or the 08 when he played 19, all of them in the finals, and had shutouts in game 1 and 2? Look at those stats. Which one of those did he not earn?

And I saw Osgood play in TWO cup finals, won 2 of them, and in those 3 playoff years they made it to the finals led by Osgood

97-98 22gp 16-6 2 SO 2.12 GAA .918 SV%
07-08 19gp 14-4 3 SO 1.55 GAA .930 SV% 2 Shutouts in the finals
08-09 23gp 15-8 2 SO 2.01 GAA .926 SV%

or even in non cup run years

99-00 when they swept us in the 1st and got smoked 4-1 by Colorado in the 2nd.

9gp 5-4 2 SO 1.97 GAA .924 SV%

or how about a 5 seed Islanders team playing..still respectable, decent playoff numbers from a non "stacked" detroit squad.

7gp 3-4 2.60 GAA .912 SV%



Let's not act like he was a standout regular season goalie, he was as streaky as they come. But when it came to the playoffs, he was money when it mattered. Those numbers are fantastic. And to say he is a bad goalie or not deserving of even a hall of fame GLANCE...that is not giving credit where credit is due. I think it's sad the flack this guy gets. He was a damn fine goalie, and a HUGE reason why Detroit had some dominant runs.

Originally Posted by Mondo Blando

Its one of those "I can't define it, but I know it when I see it" kind of things? I can buy that.

And not that you asked, but IMO the best goaltender I have ever seen, better than both prime Roy and prime Brodeur was a prime Eddie Belfour.

He may have only won one Cup, but now that was a dominant goaltender.

Belfour was truly intimidating when he was on his game.