Thread: Hunter or Jones?

Originally Posted by jbruin152

Sure you can. The data is out there. You're just lazy.

Again, you are missing my point. You have read my baseball arguments and you know that in my opinion I believe that a players value goes far beyond a stat sheet. Yes, you can look at statistics but in addition to that you have to look at a players performance under pressure, who is he getting the hits against, what was the game situation, etc. If I don't know any of those things because I didn't watch much of the playoffs that season then why would someone, who evaluates talent the way that I do, go to baseballreference.com to get JUST THE STATS. It's not enough information in my opinion so short of finding VHS tapes or DVDs of the games and reading up on all the articles written at that time I don't think I can formulate an opinion on Vlad's performance in the 2005 playoffs to my satisfaction. Not lazy, just honest with myself and with you.

Even half-blind Garret Anderson hit marginally better than Vlad in the '07 ALDS. Maybe he just had more protection. Or more finesse. Or whatever excuse you trot out to back up only your players.

Again, Vlad was injured, Garret was half blind. I'll stand by that. If you think that the poor performance by an injured players in a 3 game series is indicative of his overall value then that is just wrong. When was the last time Michael Cammalleri scored a goal? Oh yeah, his groin hurts, I forgot about that. Interesting how he was leading the league in goals when he wasn't hurt but suddenly he can't shoot a puck in the ocean if he were shooting from the shore. Vlad had a myriad of injuries going into the Boston series as did a number of Angels players. They didn't stand a chance against Boston going into the series and I knew that the moment the playoff matchups were determined.

And as for Matthews, no words put in your mouth.

I was simply making reference to the fact that several Angels players were hurt going into that series. I merely mentioned Matthews Jr. because he was a starter and didn't play a single inning. It was an example of the teams health situation going into the series but not trotted out there as an explanation as to why Vlad played below his usual standard.

Well that devolved quickly. What was taken out of context? I only call people out on their crap, and you've got a habit of backpedal, backpedal, backpedal.

Backpedal my ass. What you do is constantly take words out of context. No where did I say that Matthews not playing affected Guerrero but you sure did make it seem like I did didn't you? Another tactic that I have noticed from you is that you completely dismiss the argument or point of view of a person you debate with which pretty much makes it easy for you to "win the argument." Case in point, your insistence that protection in a lineup has no real benefit. I was polite enough to say "we agreed to disagree." We evaluate talent differently. Instead of accepting that and entertaining a different point of view you stand by your assertion that lineup protection is of no value and thus my argument is wrong. Then you little nutswinger buddies come buy and hang from your short and curlies and suck you off to make you feel like you won. Answer me this...if lineup protection is of no real value then why are Manny Ramirez and David Ortiz so incredibly successful in Boston? You don't think that Manny sees a lot of fat fastballs down the middle of the plate from right handed pitchers when Ortiz is on deck? Was the idea of "Murderers Row" just a marketing gimmick to employed by the Yankees to get the word out about Gehrig and Ruth? DiMaggio, Mantle and Maris? Didn't the Yankees get rolled in the 76 Series 4 straight by Cincinnati? Then they add Reggie Jackson to the lineup for protection for Munson and Chambliss and go on to win back to back World Series? Lineup protection has been around for 100 years but you are so ****ing smart that you are going to disprove it validity? Funny thing, beyond merely saying that lineup protection is not important you haven't proven jack ****. All you have given is an opinion.

"Well, you like use computers and stuff. And like, numbers and data. And you don't just assume based on biased observation. And that's nerdy... except when I do it."

Players feed off one another. Regardless of the sport it has happened time and time again. Magic Johnson made the players around him better. Andy McDonald and Chris Kunitz are suddenly below average hockey players with Selanne not around. Dustin Brown hardly every scored until he was put on a line with Kopitar and Cammalleri. Randy Moss is tearing up the NFL all of a sudden because he is catching balls from Tom Brady. But oh, it doesn't work in baseball because jbruin says so. What a freaking joke.