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  1. #1191
    Oh yeah absolutely I mean UnderPressure's Avatar




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    Pierre, CF

    Kemp, RF

    Loney 1B

    Kent, 2B

    Martin, C

    Ethier, LF

    LaRoche, 3B

    Hu, SS

    Penny, P

  2. #1192
    Hoya
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanteHicks
    What you're saying can be taken to mean Pierre is less valuable because he comes to the plate too much.
    No, Pierre is less valuable because he's a terrible hitter.

    All I'm saying that if you are going to sing the guy's praises, you'd better be able to back it up with stats.

    Quote Originally Posted by DanteHicks
    That's like saying Luc Robitaille only had so many goals because he got more shots than everyone else. Of course he did, that's a valuable thing to do, even if most of them are stopped.
    This is an absolutely 100% bogus analogy.

    In hockey, you have to earn your shot and missing a shot doesn't stop your teammate from taking one either (quite the opposite!). In baseball, you come up every nine guys regardless and your plate appearance is based on your place in the lineup, not based on your knack for getting up to bat.

    Quote Originally Posted by DanteHicks
    I think we should be grateful to have a top of the order guy who plays 162 games, steals lots of bases, and scores a lot of runs. Yeah, his OBP and OPS aren't in the $9 million range, but we haven't heard McCourt complain about spending money and there's no cap in baseball.
    I'm way less worried about the $ (though I would like to have that $ to pay for somebody who can actually hit) than I am about having him making outs, the most valuable commodity in baseball, at a very high rate in every single game. Every game he is in is a game that a better player (Kemp/Ethier/Gonzalez) is not playing in.

    Quote Originally Posted by DanteHicks
    Would I like him to get on even more and steal 100 bases and score 200 runs every year? Of course! But I think there are much bigger problems on this team than a #2 hitter with a crappy OPS.
    If you want to figure out why the offense isn't very potent, the lowest OPS (ok, one point ahead of Furcal) on the team is a good place to start.
    Last edited by Hoya; September 25th, 2007 at 03:15 PM.

  3. #1193
    Now Available In HD Italian Seafood's Avatar




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    Quote Originally Posted by jbruin152 View Post
    We have five guys at 60 and one guy who is at 59. Did you mean 70?

    Yeah, I had already fixed it to say 70, that was a typo by me.

    Anyway, I'm tired of arguing this, we're never going to agree. I've always favored fast players since the Reds of the 70s and the Cardinals of the 80s. Granted they played on those crappy carpets which was more condusive to faster players, but nonetheless. Different strokes, I guess.

  4. #1194
    Hoya
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    Quote Originally Posted by Italian Seafood
    Anyway, I'm tired of arguing this, we're never going to agree. I've always favored fast players since the Reds of the 70s and the Cardinals of the 80s. Granted they played on those crappy carpets which was more condusive to faster players, but nonetheless. Different strokes, I guess.
    Don't forget offensive numbers in the 90s and 2000s are also much higher...


  5. #1195
    Now Available In HD Italian Seafood's Avatar




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    Quote Originally Posted by jbruin152 View Post
    Don't forget offensive numbers in the 90s and 2000s are also much higher...

    Hahaha, yeah, among other things.

    Well, peace man. I'm going to enjoy these last six games of hearing Vin and hope for a minor miracle, how about that?

  6. #1196
    Hoya
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    Quote Originally Posted by Italian Seafood
    hope for a minor miracle, how about that?
    That we finish above .500?

    Let the offseason begin.

  7. #1197
    I'M THIRTY-SEVEN? DanteHicks's Avatar




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    Quote Originally Posted by jbruin152 View Post
    This is an absolutely 100% bogus analogy.

    In hockey, you have to earn your shot and missing a shot doesn't stop your teammate from taking one either (quite the opposite!). In baseball, you come up every nine guys regardless and your plate appearance is based on your place in the lineup, not based on your knack for getting up to bat.
    I'm more referring to believing that Pierre playing just about every inning of every year is an asset, but shows up as a liability in your formulas. I used to know a guy that said Nolan Ryan didn't deserve to be in the HOF because his BB:K ratio was too high. Sometimes people read too much into stats that "correlate" with other stats.

  8. #1198
    Hoya
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanteHicks
    I'm more referring to believing that Pierre playing just about every inning of every year is an asset, but shows up as a liability in your formulas.
    In the context of my earlier post, I'm not saying that it's a liability nearly as much as I'm saying it needs to be factored into discussion. You need to be able to figure out how valuable that he "leads the team in runs" is. This is why I don't think counting stats are nearly as useful as percentages (though percentages can be flawed if the sample size isn't big enough), because it doesn't level the playing field. More opportunity=higher totals.

    In the context of your post, you could also say it is a liability because he's a below average player who makes a lot of outs. He can't hurt you when he's not in the lineup, but every day that he is in the lineup, as previously mentioned, is a day that a better player (Gonzo/Ethier/Kemp) isn't playing. Pretty simple.

    I still have no idea where you pulled that hockey analogy from though.

    Quote Originally Posted by DanteHicks
    I used to know a guy that said Nolan Ryan didn't deserve to be in the HOF because his BB:K ratio was too high.
    Now that's just silly.

    Quote Originally Posted by DanteHicks
    Sometimes people read too much into stats that "correlate" with other stats.
    Sometimes they do, but you have to call them on specific instances instead of making generalizations.

  9. #1199
    Chipping for par lath19's Avatar




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    Too many people are focused on stat totals. For Pierre to get as many hits as he does doesn't really mean that much because of the number of AB's he gets. Extrapolate out the numbers of other #1 or #2 hitters over the amount of AB's that Pierre has and you will see why he isn't very good.

    Or, just look at a much more meaningful stat like OBP. There is a reason that stat category exists.

  10. #1200
    I'M THIRTY-SEVEN? DanteHicks's Avatar




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    Quote Originally Posted by lath19 View Post
    Extrapolate out the numbers of other #1 or #2 hitters over the amount of AB's that Pierre has and you will see why he isn't very good.
    And there it is.

    My analogy with Robitaille illustrates that you might be tempted to say that someone with a higher shooting percentage would be a better option than someone who "just" scores a lot of goals, because if you extrapolate it out, it would result in more wins.

    You can't only look at total runs scored, you can't only look at OBP and you can't only look at OPS. You can cherry-pick stats to back up any sort of opinion you want to form. That's why professional teams use scouts and not computers.

    Unless you're the A's. ;-)

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