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  1. #31
    Let the kids play ASUcruz's Avatar




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    Quote Originally Posted by GALLY View Post
    .

    Do you think Marino, Montana or Elway would have led this Patriot team to the same point as Brady?
    Can't say for certain. Montana had the greatest WR of all time(Rice), a fine running back(Roger Craig), and a good offensive line and he never went undefeated.

    Elway didn't have the weapons Brady had but he had a 2000 yard rusher, a damn good offensive line, and one of the best TEs of all time and he never went undefeated.

    I don't really get why Dan Marino is so revered. He played on a team that let him drop back 40 times a game and pitch the ball around. Some of the records he broke were held by Fran Tarkenton. Was Tarkenton considered the greatest QB of all time before Marino was? No, so why should Marino be the greatest QB of all time. Not only did he only reach the Super Bowl once, he only reached the AFC championship game twice.

    I don't think you can just say ____, ______, and _______ could do what Tom Brady did, especially when a couple of these QBs had similar talent and couldn't get it done.

    And again, I think Brady is the best because he's won 3 titles with for the most part average-above average supporting cast.

  2. #32
    You'll Never Walk Alone chu gar's Avatar




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    Quote Originally Posted by ASUcruz View Post
    Can't say for certain. Montana had the greatest WR of all time(Rice), a fine running back(Roger Craig), and a good offensive line and he never went undefeated.

    Elway didn't have the weapons Brady had but he had a 2000 yard rusher, a damn good offensive line, and one of the best TEs of all time and he never went undefeated.

    I don't really get why Dan Marino is so revered. He played on a team that let him drop back 40 times a game and pitch the ball around. Some of the records he broke were held by Fran Tarkenton. Was Tarkenton considered the greatest QB of all time before Marino was? No, so why should Marino be the greatest QB of all time. Not only did he only reach the Super Bowl once, he only reached the AFC championship game twice.

    I don't think you can just say ____, ______, and _______ could do what Tom Brady did, especially when a couple of these QBs had similar talent and couldn't get it done.

    And again, I think Brady is the best because he's won 3 titles with for the most part average-above average supporting cast.

    Quick question. Do you think the reason the 49'ers with Montana, and the Bronco's with Elway were playing harder teams, and that's why they never went undefeated? Or maybe todays athlete is much more conditioned, and the teams the Patriot's are playing today, are better, and harder than the teams of the 80's and 90's, and thus making their undefeated run even more impressive?

  3. #33
    Let the kids play ASUcruz's Avatar




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    Quote Originally Posted by chu gar View Post
    Quick question. Do you think the reason the 49'ers with Montana, and the Bronco's with Elway were playing harder teams, and that's why they never went undefeated? Or maybe todays athlete is much more conditioned, and the teams the Patriot's are playing today, are better, and harder than the teams of the 80's and 90's, and thus making their undefeated run even more impressive?
    Well it's all relative.

    For example, Montana played in an era where there wasn't much expansion so without doing any research I'd venture to guess that the overall talent level of each team was better.

    That being said, Montana's Niners were really the only team using the West Coast Offense that we see so much of today. So he was playing in a system that many defenses hadn't seen before and weren't used to playing against. I'd say it was almost akin to having a gun in a sword fight. The West Coast offense did bring the development of the Rush LB(Read Blindside for a great analysis of the factors) but really only the Giants with LT had that system.

    Nowadays, defenses are much more complicated than the ones in Montana's time. The Zone blitz didn't exist then, the cover 2 wasn't as frequently used, guys like Dwight Freeney wern't playing defensive end.

    But again it's all relative. You mention today's athletes, yes there are bigger and faster, aka Randy Moss. That being said defenses also their fair share of freak athletes, Champ Bailey comes to mind. It's all relative. Very hard to compare eras, even if the time periods are so close together.

  4. #34
    2nd Scoring Line GALLY's Avatar




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    Quote Originally Posted by ASUcruz View Post
    Can't say for certain. Montana had the greatest WR of all time(Rice), a fine running back(Roger Craig), and a good offensive line and he never went undefeated.

    Elway didn't have the weapons Brady had but he had a 2000 yard rusher, a damn good offensive line, and one of the best TEs of all time and he never went undefeated.


    I don't think you can just say ____, ______, and _______ could do what Tom Brady did, especially when a couple of these QBs had similar talent and couldn't get it done.

    And again, I think Brady is the best because he's won 3 titles with for the most part average-above average supporting cast.
    There is more than just offensive aspects to winning every game. The Patriots D has played very good this year as well.

    I also think there is something to be said with the teams in the 80's and 90's playing against tougher opponents as well. There were less teams so talent wasn't spread so thin which could also be a factor.

    I agree Brady had a tremendous season but I still think any other QB in the "greatest ever" discussion would have likely gone undefeated with this Patriots team.......

  5. #35
    Let the kids play ASUcruz's Avatar




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    Quote Originally Posted by GALLY View Post
    There is more than just offensive aspects to winning every game. The Patriots D has played very good this year as well.
    It has been good but this Patriots defense isn't as dominant as previous ones. I mean they are starting a 100 year old Junior Seau at LB, not to mention they had numerous injuries and a suspension of Rodney Harrison that had them using scrubs in their secondary.

    It's a good defense but it's not a great defense. Keep in mind that they benefitted from the fact the Patriots got so many big leads that they didn't really have to do much.

    Quote Originally Posted by GALLY
    I also think there is something to be said with the teams in the 80's and 90's playing against tougher opponents as well. There were less teams so talent wasn't spread so thin which could also be a factor.
    I brought up expansion in my previous points and again without doing much research I would say that teams in the 80s probably had more talent. That being said the NFL hasn't had an expansion team since 2002. That's about 6 years or so since the dilution of talent. Plenty of time for teams to stock up on talent.

    Also the Niners of the past played in a league where there was no hard salary cap. So while the elite teams were really elite, the bad teams were really terrible. The NFL has parity nowadays so there's a good chance that every week you are playing a pretty good football team.

    I also think there is something to be said with the teams in the 80's and 90's playing against tougher opponents as well. There were less teams so talent wasn't spread so thin which could also be a factor.

    Quote Originally Posted by GALLY
    I agree Brady had a tremendous season but I still think any other QB in the "greatest ever" discussion would have likely gone undefeated with this Patriots team.......
    Not sure how this is such a sure thing. Again, Montana had comparable talent and couldn't go undefeated.
    I agree Brady had a tremendous season but I still think any other QB in the "greatest ever" discussion would have likely gone undefeated with this Patriots team.......

  6. #36
    waxing poetic Hipcheck's Avatar




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    Ill weigh in since Im a life long NFL fan.

    Brady is in the top 3 of all time easily and arguably the best of all time. Moss is the 1st bonafide star receiver he's ever had to work with thus is the 1st season hes ever had a stud to throw the rock to.

    Montana basically had the All-Star team to the point where once Steve Young stepped in Steve Young also was a god. The 49s of that period were as stocked of team as you will ever find. George Siefert had no business winning Coach of the Year ever with that team.

    The Running game point is totally valid-Corey Dillon was the first solid RB the Pats had and even then he was nearing the end of his career. Contrast this to Favre who had Ahman Green at the peak of his career.

    Brady really is a special QB made all the more remarkable by the fact he wasnt really that big of stud playing in College ball.
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  7. #37
    Let the kids play ASUcruz's Avatar




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    Quote Originally Posted by Hipcheck View Post

    Montana basically had the All-Star team to the point where once Steve Young stepped in Steve Young also was a god. The 49s of that period were as stocked of team as you will ever find. George Siefert had no business winning Coach of the Year ever with that team.
    I didn't really get to see Montana's prime. My earliest memory of Montana are probably his last few years in SF. I do remember his KC years quite clearly, so it's hard for me to call him overrated or anything. And just to clarify I don't think he is.

    That being said, after reading Blindside and thinking about it, Montana might be the ultimate system QB. I don't think that is a knock or anything, he's the the best "system" QB of all time and he certainly was clutch, but I think it is telling that Steve Young was able to step in and be just as dominant.

    Montana was a great QB, but he always had a great supporting cast, always. Not to mention an offensive genius on the sidelines. I don't consider these things a knock on Montana because he still had to make the throws and lead his team, BUT these are things to consider when we're talking about the GOAT. Brady has done more with less and is still not done.
    Last edited by ASUcruz; January 23rd, 2008 at 09:54 PM.

  8. #38
    waxing poetic Hipcheck's Avatar




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    Montana also had Roger Craig and Tom Rathman in the backfield-Rathman was one of the greatest fullbacks ever to play the game and Craig was pretty much like Bryan Westbrook is to the eagles-throw in Jerry Rice and the other WR and All Star TE they had and its a far cry for the Patriots. Imagine what Brady might have done with 4 or 5 seasons w/Edgerrin James, Marvin Harrison, and Reggie Wayne.

    To Clarify-Im not saying Brady did it all on his own but he certainly didnt have the surrounding cast of other great QBS throughout their career. The exception is Marino who never really had a great team to work with and still put up great numbers-but he didnt win a super bowl and only appeared in 1.
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  9. #39
    Let the kids play ASUcruz's Avatar




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    Quote Originally Posted by Hipcheck View Post
    Montana also had Roger Craig and Tom Rathman in the backfield-Rathman was one of the greatest fullbacks ever to play the game and Craig was pretty much like Bryan Westbrook is to the eagles-throw in Jerry Rice and the other WR and All Star TE they had and its a far cry for the Patriots. Imagine what Brady might have done with 4 or 5 seasons w/Edgerrin James, Marvin Harrison, and Reggie Wayne.
    Craig was also a far better inside runner than Westbrook was. Montana probably had the best weapons out of any of the "great" QBs. Plus an innovative system.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hipcheck
    To Clarify-Im not saying Brady did it all on his own but he certainly didnt have the surrounding cast of other great QBS throughout their career. The exception is Marino who never really had a great team to work with and still put up great numbers-but he didnt win a super bowl and only appeared in 1.
    Pretty much what I've been arguing as well.

    I still don't get the hype with Marino. Yea he put up a ton of stats but again the records he broke were held by Fran Tarkenton. Was Tarkenton the best before Marino broke them? No, so why did Marino automatically become the GOAT after he broke those records. I don't get it.

    Marino was a great QB, but certainly not the GOAT. I don't hold him in as high a regard as others.

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