Thread: Kobe: Hire West or trade me

Your words "the numbers are impossible." But here you're actually agreeing with me. The numbers aren't the problem; they do work with NBA trade rules. Bryant/Brown for O'Neal, solely on numbers, is a valid trade. Toss in Bynum if you want and numbers-wise it still works.

But yes, unrealistic.

Yeah, you got me. Last time I take sports radio for gospel without checking my facts.

You said championship level. They're tied 2-2 with a great team, so they fit the criterion... but I'd still lean towards the Spurs as the '07 champs.

I'm standing by this one. The Cav's aren't getting to the finals this year, or anytime soon IMO.

The "Jordan played a team game" argument is circular logic. He played a team game because they won, and they won because he played a team game.

Nobody looks at Michael Jordan's career and says "unselfish." They say "dominant scorer." His scoring and assists numbers in his peak seasons are pretty much identical to Kobe's, but he had a stronger supporting cast.

Jordan's reputation as an individual player was made long before the titles. The Bulls didn't win anything until he changed his focus from the highlight reel to victories AND the supporting cast was given a higher priority. Bryant has yet to make this change, and the new cap-era limits the amount of money you can spend on the bench.

Minimalize it all you want with the "one team" comment, but it happened SIX times.

This only proves my point - it took a friggin' dynasty to accomplish that goal. No other team has even come close with a 2-guard running the show.

What about Dwyane Wade? Larry Bird? Isiah Thomas? Weren't they swingmen and the premier players on their team? I agree with you that the center is the most important position in the game, and the 2-guard is the most replaceable player... but the "2-guard can't be your best player to win" theory is bunk.

Wade has won one title, and it only happened because of O'Neal opening the holes. Take the aging, fattened O'Neal out of the line-up for an extended period, and what you see is what you get. Not much.

Bird is close to what I was getting at. He was a dominant swingman playing with hall-of-famers at nearly every other spot. The Boston bench was unbelievable. They are close to the exception to my "rule", but even then they had no salary cap to speak of. Role players were lining up to play at the Garden.

Thomas was a point guard. Dumars was their shooter in the back court.

I'm still waiting for another example of a two-guard running the show on an elite-level squad. If your only argument is Jordan, well, then I'll concede that it took the greatest player of his generation (if not ever) to accomplish that goal. Jordan was the recipient of a lot of media hype, but even considering that, you cannot honestly compare Jordan to Bryant can you?

Originally Posted by SmytheKing

That's just silly to say they're content with mediocrity. Like jbruin said earlier, we're spoiled. We're four years from winning the ****ing title three years in a row for crying out loud. The problem is that they're so tied up with bad contracts (they're STILL paying Brian Grant) that they can't do anything besides using the MLE which ALWAYS goes to people that don't deserve it and have had one good year out of six.

no, the front office is content with mediocrity. They have failed so miserably since the last time we were in the Finals. Kupchak has made horrible draft decisions because he sticks to his blueprint instead of drafting the best player available, causing us to pick Rush over Prince and Cook over Barbossa and Howard. We have also been keen on giving multi-year contracts to one dimensional shooters like Vlad Rad and Sasha and have completely trashed any notion of assembling a team that can play a lick of defense. We have been so conservative in trading for people since the horrible Shaq trade. The Laker brass has been so ****ing incompetent and stupid, running this team into the ground without anything to show for it.

Potential trades for Kobe courtesy of Bill Simmons and the ESPN trade machine:

Houston trades Tracy McGrady, Bobby Sura (expiring contract in 2008) and the No. 26 pick for Kobe and Vladimir Radmanovic. (Hell no. NEVER, EVER)

Philadelphia trades Andre Igoudala, Sam Dalembert, Kevin Ollie (expiring contract in 2008), the No. 12 pick and the No. 21 pick for Kobe. ( Possibly. Young players and draft picks are always good. So is an expiring contract)

Boston trades Theo Ratliff (expires in 2008), Al Jefferson, Gerald Green, the No. 5 pick and their rights to Minny's future No. 1 for Kobe. (another maybe. I like the high picks)

Dallas trades Josh Howard, Jason Terry and Jerry Stackhouse (sign-and-trade starting at $7.3 million per) for Kobe. (Blech. . .could have done better for Shaq.)

Atlanta trades Joe Johnson, Marvin Williams, Ty Lue and the No. 11 pick for Kobe and Radmanovic. (Like the deal except for Lue.)

Atlanta trades Joe Johnson, Josh Childress, Ty Lue and the No. 3 pick for Kobe and Radmanovic. (I like this one a little more.)

Chicago trades Luol Deng, Ben Gordon, Victor Khryapa and the No. 9 pick for Kobe. (I really like this one too. Not too sold on Gordon's D, but he's an upgrade from Smush for sure.)

Phoenix trades Shawn Marion, Leandro Barbosa, Marcus Banks and the rights to Atlanta's 2008 first-rounder to the Lakers for Kobe and Radmanovic. (heh. . .won't happen, but I kinda like this trade too.)

Thoughts?

There is some sort of myth that the Lakers have all of the sudden started to screw up the draft. Take a look at their first round selections over the last 16 years. Only a small handful of players have had any impact in the league at all. The last first round pick that worked was Devean George, and boy does that say something.

The best player out of that time period was Eddie Jones. You are looking at guys like Fisher, Peeler, Lynch and Elden Campbell as the cream of the crop.

The draft is not the answer for this team, at least since Magic showed up on their doorstep. Buss and West's bread and butter have been their free agency pick-ups.

Originally Posted by DiehardKingsFan

no, the front office is content with mediocrity. They have failed so miserably since the last time we were in the Finals. Kupchak has made horrible draft decisions because he sticks to his blueprint instead of drafting the best player available, causing us to pick Rush over Prince and Cook over Barbossa and Howard. We have also been keen on giving multi-year contracts to one dimensional shooters like Vlad Rad and Sasha and have completely trashed any notion of assembling a team that can play a lick of defense. We have been so conservative in trading for people since the horrible Shaq trade. The Laker brass has been so ****ing incompetent and stupid, running this team into the ground without anything to show for it.

Well said. I would add to same other names to call the FO of the Lakers, but that post says it all. Karma 4 you.

EDIT: DHKF it says I need to spread more Karma before giving it to you. ****.

Originally Posted by SmytheKing

Potential trades for Kobe courtesy of Bill Simmons and the ESPN trade machine:

Houston trades Tracy McGrady, Bobby Sura (expiring contract in 2008) and the No. 26 pick for Kobe and Vladimir Radmanovic. (Hell no. NEVER, EVER)

Philadelphia trades Andre Igoudala, Sam Dalembert, Kevin Ollie (expiring contract in 2008), the No. 12 pick and the No. 21 pick for Kobe. ( Possibly. Young players and draft picks are always good. So is an expiring contract)

Boston trades Theo Ratliff (expires in 2008), Al Jefferson, Gerald Green, the No. 5 pick and their rights to Minny's future No. 1 for Kobe. (another maybe. I like the high picks)

Dallas trades Josh Howard, Jason Terry and Jerry Stackhouse (sign-and-trade starting at $7.3 million per) for Kobe. (Blech. . .could have done better for Shaq.)

Atlanta trades Joe Johnson, Marvin Williams, Ty Lue and the No. 11 pick for Kobe and Radmanovic. (Like the deal except for Lue.)

Atlanta trades Joe Johnson, Josh Childress, Ty Lue and the No. 3 pick for Kobe and Radmanovic. (I like this one a little more.)

Chicago trades Luol Deng, Ben Gordon, Victor Khryapa and the No. 9 pick for Kobe. (I really like this one too. Not too sold on Gordon's D, but he's an upgrade from Smush for sure.)

Phoenix trades Shawn Marion, Leandro Barbosa, Marcus Banks and the rights to Atlanta's 2008 first-rounder to the Lakers for Kobe and Radmanovic. (heh. . .won't happen, but I kinda like this trade too.)

Thoughts?

Slim pickens. The mandate should be that there must be a quality point guard in the mix. The Lakers won't have any cap space available unless they decide to move Odom, Brown and/or Bynum in addition to the Kobe deal.

Hinrich, Gordon and Nocini would be a good place to start, though I doubt Chicago is interested in giving Kirk up.

Originally Posted by bland

Jordan's reputation as an individual player was made long before the titles. The Bulls didn't win anything until he changed his focus from the highlight reel to victories AND the supporting cast was given a higher priority.

A much more important factor than Jordan's "mindset": the emergence of Scottie Pippen. Jordan was still the dominant primary scorer that he always was.

Post-Shaq trade, we've yet to see Kobe play with a Pippen-caliber player. So far he's had garbage. I'm reserving judgment.

Originally Posted by bland

This only proves my point - it took a friggin' dynasty to accomplish that goal. No other team has even come close with a 2-guard running the show.

Nonsense. Seven times in 17 years (the current era, if you will) pretty much destroys your theory that a 2-guard led team can't win. It's one thing to have a personal preference, but I hate absolute statements when it comes to sports.

Originally Posted by bland

Wade has won one title, and it only happened because of O'Neal opening the holes. Take the aging, fattened O'Neal out of the line-up for an extended period, and what you see is what you get. Not much.

Give Kobe a good post player and we'll see what happens. The O'Neal that Wade won with was a much lesser version of the O'Neal that won three rings in L.A. Wade was the dominant player on that team.

Originally Posted by bland

Bird is close to what I was getting at. He was a dominant swingman playing with hall-of-famers at nearly every other spot. The Boston bench was unbelievable. They are close to the exception to my "rule", but even then they had no salary cap to speak of. Role players were lining up to play at the Garden.

Thomas was a point guard. Dumars was their shooter in the back court.

I'll concede these two.

Originally Posted by bland

I'm still waiting for another example of a two-guard running the show on an elite-level squad. If your only argument is Jordan, well, then I'll concede that it took the greatest player of his generation (if not ever) to accomplish that goal. Jordan was the recipient of a lot of media hype, but even considering that, you cannot honestly compare Jordan to Bryant can you?

Like I said, I won't disagree with you that it is the most replaceable position on the team--but Bryant is at another world level talent-wise.

As far as Jordan vs. Kobe... not yet, no. On talent, he's on par--I'm still waiting to see what he can do with pieces around him that aren't at the scrap heap level.

They also let Wade rack up free throws last year by giving him every call. By the time Jordan came back from baseball and won the last three titles, it almost seemed like pro wrestling. He threw Mookie Blaylock out of bounds in a game winning shot situation and got away with it. His famous last shot vs Utah was a blatant pushoff on Byron Russell. Then they let Shaq lower his shoulder and push everyone down so he could dunk. He has no touch, never did. Had that little 10 foot shot going for a few years, that's it.

My point is, the league latches onto a guy and whether it's subliminal or intentional, they start getting away with ridiculous stuff that kind of mars the game. It started with Jordan and the playoffs became like a TV show. Before him, at least Dr J and Bird and Magic, Kareem, all those guys had to go up against each other.

The other interesting thing about the Jordan years that suggests he's the exception to the rule is this: even at the height of Jordan's success, when he left the NBA for two seasons, who competed for the championship? In 1994 it was Ewing's Knicks vs Hakeem's Rockets, 1995 was the Rockets vs Shaq and the Magic. David Robinson was the MVP in 1995 although Hakeem destroyed him in the playoffs. But it was about the big men, like it is now with Duncan and maybe now Oden in the next few years. I think that's always going to be a big factor in basketball, it almost has to be.

Anyone else smell the essence of the Dodgers becoming LA's number 1 team again?

Die Lakers Die!! Take your propaganda radio station with you...

BWHAHAHA!!