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Thread: The Kneeling Phenomena (during National Anthem)

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by santiclaws View Post
    Setting aside the reasons for the factors above, please provide supporting data for your hypothesis that these things "hurt blacks much more than racism."
    Probably should go to Chicago, Baltimore and some other inner cities and ask the mothers of the sons killed by black on black violence if it hurts much more than racism?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ice24 View Post
    Probably should go to Chicago, Baltimore and some other inner cities and ask the mothers of the sons killed by black on black violence if it hurts much more than racism?
    This statement is a rather apt example of the institutional racism that is being discussed. First of all, intraracial violence is about as common among white people as it is among black people, as violence and crime is about proximity. Calling it "black on-black violence" is an unnecessary specification. The next canard is often that crime rates are much higher in black neighborhoods than white. If however you compare communities with similar socioeconomic conditions and population densities, you again find very similar crime rates between comparable black and white communities. Further, how black people treat each other has absolutely no relation to inequitable policing and sentencing, nor any other unseen or unnoticed privileges that white people enjoy.

    Privilege is not often noticed by the privileged. Those advantages that privilege brings is often attributed to harder work, better ethics, less turpitude, not the simple luck of birth lottery. Those kids you reference in Chicago and Baltimore are already at a disadvantage just based on something as simple as their name. When sending out identical resumes, changing only the name on the resume, resumes with black-sounding names were 33 percent less likely to get responded to than those with white-sounding names. The same goes for asking for information from governments; when inquiring about schools or libraries, they are less likely to receive a response.

    These are real problems, and until we recognize them and work on our own biases, they will continue to the detriment of society on the whole.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by NobleSavage View Post
    How is it you and I have incredibly similar backgrounds of service and you are triggered by this and I find it normal for a well functioning democracy?
    What issue is the difference in our view of this matter?
    He’s a fragile person.

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    I'm shocked that this thread is still here but I'm glad it is. Kneeling during the anthem is a protest against racism in this country & unaccounted police violence against minorities, full stop. They're not protests of the flag or anthem any more than Rosa Parks & MLK were protesting bus rides. And if there is a "better time" to protest than when is it? They want to make a point & outside of during the game, when else will they have all eyes on them? I think it's anyone's choice to kneel or not. And it's anyone else's right to speak out against that. But at least tell the truth about what they're about. And to me the principles behind the flag are more important than the flag itself.

    But let's not forget that this wouldn't even be an issue if Trump hadn't brought it up at his campaign rally in Alabama. He wanted to drum up this issue to rile up his base & to raise campaign funds. Meanwhile, Puerto Rico got devastated by Hurricane Maria & has no food, water, fuel, medicine, or any way to communicate. It's a week & a half out & Trump is just deciding to send some relief. If he'd spent less time on the NFL & more time on Puerto Rico, maybe things would be better for PR right now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Butch 19 View Post
    A few items that hurt blacks much more than racism include:

    - having kids before they graduate
    - fatherless families (75% of blacks are born to single mothers - see what Tupac Shakur had to say about not having a father in the house)
    - black on black violence
    Those things don't hurt Blacks more than racism. Those things are caused by racism.

    What do you say about the disproportionate rates of incarceration between Blacks & Whites. Meaning, if a Black person & a White person both commit a crime, the Black person will go to jail & the White person goes free. Then being caught in the system means less chance for a decent job outside & less chance to be a father. And the cycle continues. Also related is the school-to-prison pipeline, which criminalizes behavior by minorities in school that would just be considered bad behavior by Whites, who only receive a detention or suspension. As well as the whole issue of mass incarceration & the for profit prison system.

    For kids having kids, how about better sex education in schools. And also more neighborhood health clinics where young people have better access to birth control & even - yes I'll say it - access to getting abortions.

    And the rate of Black on Black crime is similar to the rate of White on White crime, so that's not even a real issue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Tran View Post
    Those things don't hurt Blacks more than racism. Those things are caused by racism.

    What do you say about the disproportionate rates of incarceration between Blacks & Whites. Meaning, if a Black person & a White person both commit a crime, the Black person will go to jail & the White person goes free. Then being caught in the system means less chance for a decent job outside & less chance to be a father. And the cycle continues. Also related is the school-to-prison pipeline, which criminalizes behavior by minorities in school that would just be considered bad behavior by Whites, who only receive a detention or suspension. As well as the whole issue of mass incarceration & the for profit prison system.

    For kids having kids, how about better sex education in schools. And also more neighborhood health clinics where young people have better access to birth control & even - yes I'll say it - access to getting abortions.

    And the rate of Black on Black crime is similar to the rate of White on White crime, so that's not even a real issue.
    Some good points all around. I did not learn sex education in school, I learned that from both of my parents. Another thing I learned from my parents was, what you do today will have an effect on your life tomorrow! So basically saying, if you want to take that risk, prepare for the consequences. I also had older brothers that would have kicked my a$$ if I got out of line.

    I had my first bout with racism on a field trip in 1st grade at the Natural History Museum by USC, when a black kid from another school walked by me and without provocation called me a honky. I had no idea what a honky was until I asked my parents later that night.

    Not sure about your rate on crime, you must have some real time data on those facts you presented. I guess the rate maybe similar but maybe not the rate per the population. What's great is people are talking about it now!

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by roenick View Post
    This is the key to me. The discussion. When is it going to take place? Look at what Nate Boyer and Colin Kapernick accomplished - a short adult discussion between two people brought about a change - granted it was only going from sitting to kneeling - that led to understanding and respect from both sides. Nate spoke at my church one Sunday morning last spring and specifically talked this specific subject. How this was handled was how these things really need to be handled/addressed. Getting the politicians and the media involved just makes it spin out of control. I am not trying to offend here but what Nate and Colin did was handle it like men.

    My biggest issue here is when are the real hard discussions going to happen? I live in Seattle and hear all about Michael Bennett and his stance. I have no issue with Bennett or anything he is saying/doing - it is his right to do so. I am going to the Seahawks game Sunday night and I will be standing during the anthem and have my hand over my heart as I always do but this is my right and affects no one but me. I just think we need to move to the next level of this issue - talking about the issues and trying to effect real change. If the players really want to see something happen they need to ignore the baiting of the President and try and work these things at a local level.
    The local level resonated with me a bit. Perhaps because although this has become a national issue, the nature of PD's are local and working solutions have to be implemented within communities. Not something the Federal Gov't is exceptionally good at no matter which party the president happens to be at the time. At some point awareness has to turn the corner into local community-PD dialogue regarding transparency/mutual accountability because as much as the focus is on the misdeeds of police and rightly so, there is also an aspect of community responsibility to moderate overreaction to legitimate proportionate police responses as reform begins to play out within those PDs that start down that road.

    MLK's leadership included the moderating of voices whose passion for a just cause leaned toward advocation of counter productive tactics because he knew it was a long road and no quick fixes are to be had. I say the following with all the humility I can muster because I am not in the position of these NFL guys and am not being asked to make hard choices in my life regarding this national discussion, but I do think it will be far, far more difficult for community leaders to engage with local authorities as well as remind community voices that reform has to be entered into hand in hand, than it is to take a knee, no matter what finiancial cost is involved.

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    Anheuser-Busch is considering pulling their ads from the NFL because of disrespect to the American flag. They want to hear from the public.

    You can call 1-800-342-5283 to leave your comment (press 1).

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by salami View Post
    The problem is that there are some of us (many of us) to whom it isn't just a piece of cloth. Contrary to the opinion of some, love for one's country is not a contemptible thing. It is that love that is the basis of my disgust with these players' behavior. I suppose if you just see it as a piece of cloth, or just a song, you just won't get it, so perhaps convincing you otherwise is a lost cause. But, I have served my country, and I have had friends that I served with who died doing the same. I am eternally grateful for the opportunities I have for no other reason than being born here, and you'll never convince me otherwise. I'm saddened that somehow you've been convinced otherwise.

    I know I'm not going to convince you of my opinion because you seem pretty satisfied with your beliefs. In light of this, I'm off to go deal with matters of consequence, so I bid you farewell.

    It is just a piece of cloth...that is made in Korea or Taiwan.
    The flag is only a symbol and symbols are co-opted ALL THE TIME for every reason/agenda imaginable.

    You clearly feel as the president does...so what do you think of this ?


    or the clothes, hats, boots etc... sold with the american flag on it ?
    Last edited by Bill Hicks; October 4th, 2017 at 01:32 PM.

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    One great thing about LGK has been the lack of non-stop political arguments that really have no solution and nobody changes their minds. There is an app where you can argue all day about politics called FACEBOOK. Please take all politics there.

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