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  1. #11
    Sausage King of Chicago
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    Quote Originally Posted by What party? View Post
    But, arguing against myself, they could just pull a Stevie Y and outplay every god damn person on the team hobbling on one leg, silently mean mugging every man that does not do the same. .


    I'm not Mondo, but I just had to chime in... You can have leaders who simply bust their ass night in and night out. They don't have to do anything else. If your best players are your hardest working players, how are the rest NOT going to follow? No silent mugging required. That attitude comes from within, it does not come from a coach.

    One of my favorite Kings' captains of all time was Norstrom. The dude never said anything, and I can't fathom he was very loud in the locker room, he wasn't that type of guy. The type of guy he was is the kind of guy who leaves it all on the ice every single shift. That dude had PRIDE. If Kopitar had the same attitude, he'd be the best player in the NHL with his talent.

  2. #12
    Concussed Villain
    Mondo Blando's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by What party? View Post
    Note: This is not a declaration of war. Merely a person looking for how your train of thought comes to completion (kripes that sounds dirty but no time to self-edit, just keep typing).



    Mondo: We are both on the same page about the rebuild but I am wondering about you questioning Kopitar and Doughty’s leadership in more of a practical setting instead of ‘the abstract academic’, if you will. For funsies (which probably makes you see red but don’t care) if you were one or both of these men, how would you proceed for the 2018-19 season, specifically?



    Just to get the ball rolling, my brand of leadership would be focusing on each man’s specific skill set and giving them resources (and encouragement) to succeed on their own. How that translates practically, no clue. And maybe that’s Anze’s and Drew’s problem as well, they know they have to do something but have hit the ceiling on how to put a plan in action or worse yet, afraid to fail at said plan. But, arguing against myself, they could just pull a Stevie Y and outplay every god damn person on the team hobbling on one leg, silently mean mugging every man that does not do the same. Although, that could breed contempt so guess it’s a fine line to walk as a leader.
    In order to lead by example or by word, your character comes into examination.

    Anze Kopitar is an under-achiever. He routunely accomplishes less than his ability allows. The outliers are the 2014 series against San Jose, which is the only playiff series he has had where one could legitimately claim that he was the team's best player. He was fantastic last year as well.

    Other than those two examples, and the myriad hot streaks in every season other than 16-17, his game has always been disappointing. He accepts instead of dictates.

    Now that doesn't mean he is a bad player by any stretch. It just means he has always been perfectly fine accepting a level of play lower than that of which he is capable of providing. I don't know how anyone can look at him as an example of leadership, because if the team follows his path, they are never going to rise above their station. And that is very likely the case, because there isn't a single player on this roster who is OVER achieving since Sutter left. They all seem perfectly fine just doing their individual jobs without galvanizing into a whole unit. That has always been my major complaint about Anze, and this year is no different.

    Doughty is the exaxt opposite. He will always try to do too much, and his control over his emotions ain't exactly strong. The competitive edge that he plays with is his defining skill. Sometimes it goes over the edge into distraction, and that cannot be tolerated of a leader because if that is the norm, players who don't use that edge to drive their game can't use it as an excuse for over reacting. It's not an acceptable standard to follow, even if it works for him as an individual because he is an exceptional talent.

    So you have two guys setting two very different standards but neither acting as a positive force to build the best team. Two sides of the wrong coin.

    Both players can achieve incredible things, but neither really helps a team come together and push forward.

  3. #13
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    What party?'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by santiclaws View Post


    I'm not Mondo, but I just had to chime in... You can have leaders who simply bust their ass night in and night out. They don't have to do anything else. If your best players are your hardest working players, how are the rest NOT going to follow? No silent mugging required. That attitude comes from within, it does not come from a coach.

    One of my favorite Kings' captains of all time was Norstrom. The dude never said anything, and I can't fathom he was very loud in the locker room, he wasn't that type of guy. The type of guy he was is the kind of guy who leaves it all on the ice every single shift. That dude had PRIDE. If Kopitar had the same attitude, he'd be the best player in the NHL with his talent.
    Same. May have drunkenly defended Brown's leadership style as a reflection (read: emulation) of his former captain Matti's all business style. Blank stares.

    Ps- there have been many articles written about how Matti was the worst Kings' captain, ever. If the purge happens, those people have made my "list". <<joke>>

    ***
    Yes, Mondo, you've established their short comings just fine but how would YOU with these handicaps, make it work?

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by What party? View Post
    Same. May have drunkenly defended Brown's leadership style as a reflection (read: emulation) of his former captain Matti's all business style. Blank stares.

    Ps- there have been many articles written about how Matti was the worst Kings' captain, ever. If the purge happens, those people have made my "list". <<joke>>

    ***
    Yes, Mondo, you've established their short comings just fine but how would YOU with these handicaps, make it work?
    Me as who? Them? Their coach? Their teammate? Just me as a fan?

    I would have traded Kopitar, called the window closed, and given Doughty the option to stay for a max deal. If he didn't want to stay, I would have respected his choice, thanked him for his service, and start calling GMs.

    A rebuild is absolutely no guarantee of success, but the current path is guaranteed failure.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mondo Blando View Post
    Me as who? Them? Their coach? Their teammate? Just me as a fan?

    I would have traded Kopitar, called the window closed, and given Doughty the option to stay for a max deal. If he didn't want to stay, I would have respected his choice, thanked him for his service, and start calling GMs.

    A rebuild is absolutely no guarantee of success, but the current path is guaranteed failure.
    You as them. Because short of you having a solution, as them, it would be silly for you as a fan to ask them (read: keep posting about) fixing it, stepping up, looking in the mirror, etc knowing they are in an untenable situation. Unless there is a third option, which I cant see but am open to discuss.

  6. #16
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    Didn't they tell him to take the right turn at Albuquerque???

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by What party? View Post
    You as them. Because short of you having a solution, as them, it would be silly for you as a fan to ask them (read: keep posting about) fixing it, stepping up, looking in the mirror, etc knowing they are in an untenable situation. Unless there is a third option, which I cant see but am open to discuss.
    Oh, you can't change who people are. We have more than enough history to gauge these rwo. You have to supplement them with others who can carry the leadership burden. There are a lot of terrific players with great attitudes who just aren't capable of inspiring others.

    That's what made a team featuring Williams, Richards, Mitchell, Stoll and Greene so special. Lombardi identified that his core group didn't have that leadership element and sought it from outside the organization.

    I don't think "leadership" is an element you can identify until one has the chance and either succeeds or fails more than once. For example, I think we are all pretty excited to see Anderson-Dolan develop because he "seems" like that kind of player, but you can't tell for sure until he proves himself.

    That's why there are so few teams that repeat as winners. It's a special quality, and once it is identified, other teams want it too and it inflates the value of those "winners". The Kings problem now is that Lombardi overpaid to keep them all instead of reading the terrain and trading some of them in a seller's market.

  8. #18
    Just... just listen.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mondo Blando View Post
    I don't think "leadership" is an element you can identify until one has the chance and either succeeds or fails more than once. For example, I think we are all pretty excited to see Anderson-Dolan develop because he "seems" like that kind of player, but you can't tell for sure until he proves himself.

    That's why there are so few teams that repeat as winners. It's a special quality, and once it is identified, other teams want it too and it inflates the value of those "winners". The Kings problem now is that Lombardi overpaid to keep them all instead of reading the terrain and trading some of them in a seller's market.
    Lombardi was also of the thinking that it was a quality you could learn.

    Originally, he brought in "pros" like Willsie and Thornton to show the kids, Anze and Brown respectively, how to be NHL regulars in a regular environment. Presumably it was things like locker room etiquette, preperations, etc. Anze was a straight rookie then, and Brown was young and had some experience, but the locker room was reportedly sort of a warped environment. And I guess it worked.


    Then he identified the leadership issue, brought in those guys and, again, thought that if Anze and Brown and Doughty saw these guy an how they led, they would do the same once those guys left.

    I think part of why that didn't end up working, actually, was the general approach under Sutter, which seemingly left more of an impression and is still influencing Anze and Brown today. Especially since it reinforced what they had been before.

    In 2012-14, one of the mainstays of the Kings approach was "play your game, don't react." In 2012, you especially saw it against Phoenix, when some weird things happened - the Kings just rolled out for their next shift, but Phoenix lost their s*** when things went against them. You saw it in the Finals, too. The Kings would go out and kill a 5-on-3. Meanwhile De Boer was That eventually got translated into the whole "park and ride" philosophy thet got them through 3 game 7s in 2014.

    That "park and ride" meant Anze could lean into his "no one has to be great" approach, and Brown, who has always been a product of his reputation, just sank into an ineffective malaise. "Park and ride," to them, meant keep being the guy you were, which meant they never had to do more than they ever did before. And after as long as they'd been in the league, there's not much changing that now.

    Doughty, on the other hand, is just a cocky sonofabitch. He can't take losing, especially when he thinks winning is an option. And he will go on tilt trying to make things happen. As Blando says, that not great leadership, but at least, I personally, appreciate the effort. Even at the expense of mistakes.
    Last edited by darby; November 9th, 2018 at 05:34 PM.


    "Only a numbskull thinks he knows things about things he knows nothing about."
    "It's understanding that makes it possible for people like us to tolerate a person like yourself."

  9. #19
    Sausage King of Chicago
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    Quote Originally Posted by darby View Post

    Doughty, on the other hand, is just a cocky sonofabitch. He can't take losing, especially when he thinks winning is an option. And he will go on tilt trying to make things happen. As Blando says, that not great leadership, but at least, I personally, appreciate the effort. Even at the expense of mistakes.
    It's Lombardi's old taming a tiger vs. painting stripes on a pussycat thing.

  10. #20
    Now on the 1st tee...
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    This thread title has an almost existential vibe to it, as though the meaning could be taken either literally or figuratively.

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