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  1. #1471
    I'llPutPenniesOnYourEyes jerseydevil's Avatar




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    See, that's the thing. Yes, Walt is guilty of many sins, pride foremost among them. But if he had been truly bad from the start of this show there is no possible way this show would be as successful. I worry that people will forget that regardless how poorly motivated, Walt started out as a desperate man who just wanted to do(what he thought) was the right thing. Was cooking meth something that a normal person would have chose? Well, once again...desperate. And imagine the anger at being diagnosed w/cancer never having been a smoker. Chemistry was what he did. And the clock was ticking. Over the course of time his character flaws slowly asserted themselves...so it really is like they say that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Maybe that is the argument eternal over this show. Was Walt ever truly good, or did circumstances just reveal the person that was hiding until opportunity presented itself. I get it Doc. And yeah, maybe I am wrong for wanting Walt to retain some semblance of a good person. The things he has done have been inexcusable and cannot be erased by anything that he does, but I still want to see that circumstances can still reveal the person that Walt once was and could have been, Sorry, I guess despite all my cynicism I am an optimist at heart.

  2. #1472
    I'llPutPenniesOnYourEyes jerseydevil's Avatar




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  3. #1473
    Iím sicka the high hat!! santiclaws's Avatar




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    Quote Originally Posted by jerseydevil View Post
    See, that's the thing. Yes, Walt is guilty of many sins, pride foremost among them. But if he had been truly bad from the start of this show there is no possible way this show would be as successful. I worry that people will forget that regardless how poorly motivated, Walt started out as a desperate man who just wanted to do(what he thought) was the right thing. Was cooking meth something that a normal person would have chose? Well, once again...desperate. And imagine the anger at being diagnosed w/cancer never having been a smoker. Chemistry was what he did. And the clock was ticking. Over the course of time his character flaws slowly asserted themselves...so it really is like they say that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Maybe that is the argument eternal over this show. Was Walt ever truly good, or did circumstances just reveal the person that was hiding until opportunity presented itself. I get it Doc. And yeah, maybe I am wrong for wanting Walt to retain some semblance of a good person. The things he has done have been inexcusable and cannot be erased by anything that he does, but I still want to see that circumstances can still reveal the person that Walt once was and could have been, Sorry, I guess despite all my cynicism I am an optimist at heart.
    Well, this is what makes the show as good as it is. Three-dimensional characters. If Walt never got cancer, or if he had a sizable life insurance policy, a teacher and a devoted father and husband would probably be the only persona he ever would have had. Someone brought up Hitler and it is a good parallel - many of the people who became Nazis and did the most horrible things imaginable were ordinary people before the war, who had ordinary jobs and families. Just like Walt, if not for the circumstances which allowed their darkness to take over, they would have continued down the same path.

    In this scenario, even though he has "turned to the darkside," Walt is still not evil through and through. He was still trying to save Hank despite the fact that Hank was the person who destroyed him. He still loves his daughter and his son and wants them to have some semblance of a normal life. I think he still loves Skyler, too. He had genuine affection for Jesse not so long ago.

    That Big Gun is obviously meant for the Nazis. Why is he coming after them - just for his barrels of money? Maybe so, but I would not be surprised if Walt attempts to save Jesse if only to be consistent with his image of himself as a good guy. He's lost everything that ever meant anything to him, perhaps this would be his last attempt to give meaning to his life - by affecting someone's life in a positive way. It probably would not be successful, but I would not be surprised by an attempt at a rescue.

  4. #1474
    I'llPutPenniesOnYourEyes jerseydevil's Avatar




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    The only thing that has made me question the Walt saves Jesse angle is the clear passage of time as evidenced by Walt's full head of hair. I don't see Todd keeping Jesse in servitude past the point where he learns what he needs to learn to handle the cook. I think it may be straight up angel of vengeance stuff that prompted Walt to buy the killeveryoneintheroom gun.

  5. #1475
    Iím sicka the high hat!! santiclaws's Avatar




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    Quote Originally Posted by jerseydevil View Post
    The only thing that has made me question the Walt saves Jesse angle is the clear passage of time as evidenced by Walt's full head of hair. I don't see Todd keeping Jesse in servitude past the point where he learns what he needs to learn to handle the cook. I think it may be straight up angel of vengeance stuff that prompted Walt to buy the killeveryoneintheroom gun.
    Bah, I forgot about the hair. So much for my theory.

  6. #1476
    Let's hug it out, bitch! NastiMarvasti's Avatar




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    Quote Originally Posted by jerseydevil View Post
    See, that's the thing. Yes, Walt is guilty of many sins, pride foremost among them. But if he had been truly bad from the start of this show there is no possible way this show would be as successful. I worry that people will forget that regardless how poorly motivated, Walt started out as a desperate man who just wanted to do(what he thought) was the right thing. Was cooking meth something that a normal person would have chose? Well, once again...desperate. And imagine the anger at being diagnosed w/cancer never having been a smoker. Chemistry was what he did. And the clock was ticking. Over the course of time his character flaws slowly asserted themselves...so it really is like they say that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Maybe that is the argument eternal over this show. Was Walt ever truly good, or did circumstances just reveal the person that was hiding until opportunity presented itself. I get it Doc. And yeah, maybe I am wrong for wanting Walt to retain some semblance of a good person. The things he has done have been inexcusable and cannot be erased by anything that he does, but I still want to see that circumstances can still reveal the person that Walt once was and could have been, Sorry, I guess despite all my cynicism I am an optimist at heart.
    Is anyone really all bad though? Even Hitler probably had some good qualities. Most people though would consider him a bad person. Pure evil is for cartoons. And I'd argue that this wasn't a desperate enough situation to do the things he's done. His family's lives weren't in danger when he started this. He just wanted them to live comfortably. That's fine but is it worth killing people over and ruining countless lives? All the while knowing that Hank would have taken care of the family. This was all about Walt's pride.

    Funny enough, this is reminding me of the theme of The Killing Joke where the Joker tries to prove that anyone can have a bad day.

  7. #1477
    Let's hug it out, bitch! NastiMarvasti's Avatar




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    Quote Originally Posted by santiclaws View Post
    Well, this is what makes the show as good as it is. Three-dimensional characters. If Walt never got cancer, or if he had a sizable life insurance policy, a teacher and a devoted father and husband would probably be the only persona he ever would have had. Someone brought up Hitler and it is a good parallel - many of the people who became Nazis and did the most horrible things imaginable were ordinary people before the war, who had ordinary jobs and families. Just like Walt, if not for the circumstances which allowed their darkness to take over, they would have continued down the same path.

    In this scenario, even though he has "turned to the darkside," Walt is still not evil through and through. He was still trying to save Hank despite the fact that Hank was the person who destroyed him. He still loves his daughter and his son and wants them to have some semblance of a normal life. I think he still loves Skyler, too. He had genuine affection for Jesse not so long ago.

    That Big Gun is obviously meant for the Nazis. Why is he coming after them - just for his barrels of money? Maybe so, but I would not be surprised if Walt attempts to save Jesse if only to be consistent with his image of himself as a good guy. He's lost everything that ever meant anything to him, perhaps this would be his last attempt to give meaning to his life - by affecting someone's life in a positive way. It probably would not be successful, but I would not be surprised by an attempt at a rescue.
    If Walt comes back to save Jesse and succeeds, Jesse would probably still kill Walt.

  8. #1478
    Hating ties is dumb. Dr. Naysay's Avatar




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    Quote Originally Posted by Bogey View Post
    What is a good person?
    It's all relative, isn't it?
    That's my point.

    We're presented with the idea that this otherwise perfectly decent human being becomes a monster based on the choices he makes when faced with a desperate situation (the cancer doncha know).

    But so early one we're given a glimpse into what kind of man Walter White is. He refuses money that could save his life and a job opportunity that would elevate him and his family out of middle class humdrummery.

    And he angrily refuses it.

    Why?

    Pride. Pride mixed with deceit, cowardice, avarice, resentment and a desire to control the people he claims to love and respect most in the world.

    Walter White does everything for his family? What kind of man would do the things he's done for his family if he truly loved them when the Gray Matter option is on the table?

    No.

    Walter White lived a decent life but he was not a decent man.

  9. #1479
    Let's hug it out, bitch! NastiMarvasti's Avatar




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    Quote Originally Posted by jerseydevil View Post
    The only thing that has made me question the Walt saves Jesse angle is the clear passage of time as evidenced by Walt's full head of hair. I don't see Todd keeping Jesse in servitude past the point where he learns what he needs to learn to handle the cook. I think it may be straight up angel of vengeance stuff that prompted Walt to buy the killeveryoneintheroom gun.
    I think it's a year later because in the diner he wrote "52" with his bacon.

  10. #1480
    Hating ties is dumb. Dr. Naysay's Avatar




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    Quote Originally Posted by NastiMarvasti View Post
    Funny enough, this is reminding me of the theme of The Killing Joke where the Joker tries to prove that anyone can have a bad day.
    I was thinking about that and the Book of Job!

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