The NHL’s 10 worst contracts, 2021 edition: Drew Doughty retains his title

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Originally Posted by jt

I just think it's hilarious that fans think the actual NHLers are wrong. I've listened to hundreds of player and NHL staff interviews in various podcasts and they just don't do what you and santiclaws think they do. They do pay attention to the play of players in the season they're voting on. They don't vote on reputation. They don't vote for their buddies. The real-life actual NHL players and staff I listen to don't do what you guys say they do...nomatter what fans want to think.

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Yeah, people say the do all kinds of things they don't actually do.

The vote for Doughty as best defenseman in 2019-20, when he was an absolute turnover machine, can only be explained by the fact that those voting for him did not watch him play, or didn't care how he played. He looked awful and his stats were equally awful. I am far from a Doughty hater; he's been my favorite player on the Kings since he was drafted. I will go to my grave saying that Doughty was easily the Kings' best player in the 2012 playoffs and should have won the Conn Smythe. By the same token, a blind man could see that two season ago, he was not a good first pairing NHL defenseman, forget being elite. Voting him the best defenseman in the league was laughable.

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Originally Posted by jt

I just think it's hilarious that fans think the actual NHLers are wrong. I've listened to hundreds of player and NHL staff interviews in various podcasts and they just don't do what you and santiclaws think they do. They do pay attention to the play of players in the season they're voting on. They don't vote on reputation. They don't vote for their buddies. The real-life actual NHL players and staff I listen to don't do what you guys say they do...nomatter what fans want to think.

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Heh. Fair enough. I think it's hilarious that all of us are willing to type about this voting process. Haven't we caught our limit of voting ---uhhh-- issues this past year?

Okay, welp, how you spend your time on hobbies is absolutely no different from how I spend on my own. Yesterday there was a post on reddit that said: Jaws is a nearly perfect movie. It took me 12 minutes to fight the urge to click on that post and read every single comment. Reddit did not win on that day... i'll tell you. =)

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/i...woSsw&usqp=CAU

The main reason that Skinner isn't number 1 is because some overpayment is ok, since while he is an odd fellow, he steams a good ham. :grin:

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Originally Posted by HeadInjury

Put Doughty on a good team where he has an experienced top-4 partner and where he isn't asked to play 26+ minutes a night and, voilà, he'll look like a much better player. Way too much has been asked of him and Kopitar in recent years. They took Brown off the penalty kill, and he had a better offensive season. It's not a coincidence. They've now added Danault to lessen the burden on Kopitar. They need to do more to help Doughty.

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Totally agree. The thing I still can't wrap my head around, though, is Doughty's comment that the Kings D was fine as is and didn't need any personnel upgrades. Really makes me wonder if/when the time comes where he has the talent around him, will he be willing to step back and play a more reasonable amount of minutes per game.

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Originally Posted by santiclaws

Yeah, people say the do all kinds of things they don't actually do.

The vote for Doughty as best defenseman in 2019-20, when he was an absolute turnover machine, can only be explained by the fact that those voting for him did not watch him play, or didn't care how he played. He looked awful and his stats were equally awful. I am far from a Doughty hater; he's been my favorite player on the Kings since he was drafted. I will go to my grave saying that Doughty was easily the Kings' best player in the 2012 playoffs and should have won the Conn Smythe. By the same token, a blind man could see that two season ago, he was not a good first pairing NHL defenseman, forget being elite. Voting him the best defenseman in the league was laughable.

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Got it. So it cannot be explained by the fact that analytics and stats don't prove anything (lies, damned lies, and statistics anyone?) and that actual real life hockey players and staff know more about hockey than fans and analytic nerds? Oh, and that you know that NHL players are lying about their votes for best D, while telling the truth about every other vote.

Uh-huh...

I wonder why hockey owners employ so many people who are so totally ignorant about hockey. They should fire everyone and hire fans and analytic nerds to run their teams.

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Originally Posted by DryKing

Totally agree. The thing I still can't wrap my head around, though, is Doughty's comment that the Kings D was fine as is and didn't need any personnel upgrades. Really makes me wonder if/when the time comes where he has the talent around him, will he be willing to step back and play a more reasonable amount of minutes per game.

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Haven't you been reading this thread? NHL people don't know anything about hockey and what they do is based on friendships, biases, and reputation. Only fans and analytics nerds really know what's what.

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Originally Posted by jt

Haven't you been reading this thread? NHL people don't know anything about hockey and what they do is based on friendships, biases, and reputation. Only fans and analytics nerds really know what's what.

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Haha touché :)

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Originally Posted by jt

Got it. So it cannot be explained by the fact that analytics and stats don't prove anything (lies, damned lies, and statistics anyone?) and that actual real life hockey players and staff know more about hockey than fans and analytic nerds? Oh, and that you know that NHL players are lying about their votes for best D, while telling the truth about every other vote.

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You do realize that the majority, if not all, NHL teams (and pretty much all other big sports teams) employ analytic "nerds" these days? The Kings having one of the largest such departments. The "analytics are useless crowd" is just a completely boneheaded view. Or is everyone spending big bucks on these guys just an idiot?


And forget analytics - a blind man could see that Doughty was obviously not having a good season the year before last. He was obviously, uncharacteristically coughing up the puck at alarming rates - and yes, that was backed up by analytics. But it was so obvious, that analytics were completely unnecessary to come to that conclusion. But if you're going to insist that black is white and up is down, there's not much to argue about.

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Originally Posted by DryKing

Totally agree. The thing I still can't wrap my head around, though, is Doughty's comment that the Kings D was fine as is and didn't need any personnel upgrades. Really makes me wonder if/when the time comes where he has the talent around him, will he be willing to step back and play a more reasonable amount of minutes per game.

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What's he supposed to say? "yeah, so and so sucks and we need to upgrade." To me, his comments read more along the lines of being a good teammate and attempting to be a leader by not throwing anyone under the bus directly, because he also said the team isn't good enough and that management needed to bring in outside talent and not wait for prospects to develop. The message was pretty clear... management needs to use cap space to improve the team. We'll see if he puts his money where his mouth is, but i think if you read between the lines you can see he wasn't happy with how the team was constructed overall.

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Originally Posted by santiclaws

You do realize that the majority, if not all, NHL teams (and pretty much all other big sports teams) employ analytic "nerds" these days? The Kings having one of the largest such departments. The "analytics are useless crowd" is just a completely boneheaded view. Or is everyone spending big bucks on these guys just an idiot?

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Surely you've read my posts where I laud analytics and the nerds that make them. I think they're fantastic. But they're one tool in the toolbox and every GM other than Bob Murray will tell you that because he hates analytics although Lamoriello isn't exactly a fan of them and he's been reasonably successful. Kyle Dubas can't get the Leafs over the finish line because he's an analytics super-nerd and can't see past them.

Ugh, I hate you. You just made me agree with Pierre McGuire.

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And forget analytics - a blind man could see that Doughty was obviously not having a good season the year before last. He was obviously, uncharacteristically coughing up the puck at alarming rates - and yes, that was backed up by analytics. But it was so obvious, that analytics were completely unnecessary to come to that conclusion. But if you're going to insist that black is white and up is down, there's not much to argue about.

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I just can't get over you saying that real live actual NHL hockey players and staff don't know what fans and analytics nerds know. That they are completely oblivious to this "obvious" thing. If you're going to insist that NHL players and staff don't know that he's bad, there's not much to argue about.