Armchair GMs

I have a couple of questions. I know a lot of people are in favor of a rebuild. My question is, do you think this team can do it successfully? If you haven't liked the moves this team has made, why trust that they'll make the right ones in this case? Also, as far as I know, Holland has never actually built a team.When he was GM of the Wings they were already good. And when they weren't he was only there for a few years before leaving for Edmonton & they're still not fully rebuilt. And I don't think he came here to rebuild.

The other one is, if we're not able to acquire a Center, what about Laffy? I know a lot of people didn't like it, including me. But I didn't like it because it was in the middle of the season on the fly. What if he worked on it during the off-season? Would that work or is it still a bad idea? At the very least he's there if we need it. And I don't think Turcotte is the solution either.

And not a question but a statement. I want to see Booth & Kirsanov on D over Ceci & Dumoulin & Portillo in goal over Kuemper next season. However they make it happen doesn't matter. Also, I don’t know if the Kings will resign Moverare. But if I were him I’d walk. This team doesn’t appreciate what they have in him. Unless he likes playing 15 games at 8 minutes per game. Meanwhile Ceci & Dumoulin played all 82 games at 17 minutes per game. So are they 11x better than Moverare? I don’t think so.
 
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If Doughty can accept the role as a 3rd pair Dman with a salary that matches, I'm all in favor of resigning him after next season. If not I'd let him walk. I wish for everyone's sake he retires but we can't force him.
 
Dr. Tran said:
I have a couple of questions. I know a lot of people are in favor of a rebuild. My question is, do you think this team can do it successfully? If you haven't liked the moves this team has made, why trust that they'll make the right ones in this case? Also, as far as I know, Holland has never actually built a team.When he was GM of the Wings they were already good. And when they weren't he was only there for a few years before leaving for Edmonton & they're still not fully rebuilt. And I don't think he came here to rebuild.

The other one is, if we're not able to acquire a Center, what about Laffy? I know a lot of people didn't like it, including me. But I didn't like it because it was in the middle of the season on the fly. What if he worked on it during the off-season? Would that work or is it still a bad idea? At the very least he's there if we need it. And I don't think Turcotte is the solution either.

And not a question but a statement. I want to see Booth & Kirsanov on D over Ceci & Dumoulin & Portillo in goal over Kuemper next season. However they make it happen doesn't matter. Also, I don’t know if the Kings will resign Moverare. But if I were him I’d walk. This team doesn’t appreciate what they have in him. Unless he likes playing 15 games at 8 minutes per game. Meanwhile Ceci & Dumoulin played all 82 games at 17 minutes per game. So are they 11x better than Moverare? I don’t think so.
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I don't believe we should be thinking of a rebuild yet. In any event, even if they wanted to have a big selloff they should wait until next year's TDL to maximize the return.

As sad as it is to say, Panarin and Kempe will benefit from having a different center next season. Hopefully, Laughton re-signs. Having Byfield, Laughton, Connors and Helenius down the middle for next season would not be the end of the world.

We have 4 legit top-six wingers. For once, that isn't an issue.

Goaltending is decent if not great for next year and with Portillo, Slukynsky and George in the system there is no need to try to add.

On defense, it obviously sucks. I'd try to trade Dumoulin at 50% for futures just to open a roster spot. But would Holland we willing to admit a mistake like this? Hopefully, he won't be the GM, but I'm not holding my breath.

The key move needed for me is not at center, but trading for a legitimate defensive d-man to pair with Clarke long term. Edmundson I think would have some trade value, so moving him may also be an option. We are stuck with Ceci, but if Edmundson and Dumoulin are moved, we could handle him at 3rd RD until Brzusrewicz is ready in a year or two and then buy him out.
 
Dr. Tran said:
I have a couple of questions. I know a lot of people are in favor of a rebuild. My question is, do you think this team can do it successfully? If you haven't liked the moves this team has made, why trust that they'll make the right ones in this case? Also, as far as I know, Holland has never actually built a team.When he was GM of the Wings they were already good. And when they weren't he was only there for a few years before leaving for Edmonton & they're still not fully rebuilt. And I don't think he came here to rebuild.

The other one is, if we're not able to acquire a Center, what about Laffy? I know a lot of people didn't like it, including me. But I didn't like it because it was in the middle of the season on the fly. What if he worked on it during the off-season? Would that work or is it still a bad idea? At the very least he's there if we need it. And I don't think Turcotte is the solution either.

And not a question but a statement. I want to see Booth & Kirsanov on D over Ceci & Dumoulin & Portillo in goal over Kuemper next season. However they make it happen doesn't matter. Also, I don’t know if the Kings will resign Moverare. But if I were him I’d walk. This team doesn’t appreciate what they have in him. Unless he likes playing 15 games at 8 minutes per game. Meanwhile Ceci & Dumoulin played all 82 games at 17 minutes per game. So are they 11x better than Moverare? I don’t think so.
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Maybe it’s just semantics for some, but the talk of needing to rebuild is such an in-the-bubble ask. Ownership groups hate rebuilds as they lose money and are risky. Especially in hockey where ticket sales is the major revenue driver. AEG greenlighted a rebuild in 2006 when Dean came on and again in 17-18.

The Penguins started their rebuild before Sidney Crosby was drafted. Never another one since.

The Ducks only started their first rebuild around the time they traded Perry.

This is the Sharks’ first rebuild. Ownership kicked and screamed into it. Hertl even resigned based on the promise they wouldn’t rebuild.

Same for PHI. Ownership absolutely hated the idea.

CAL has continued to refuse to commit despite the evidence.

VAN is finally committing to an actual tear it down rebuild after ownership refused for years, despite others in the organization calling for it.

NSH tried to get cute and rush it.

Even TOR, who has hardly any assets, is talking retool right now vs. rebuild. Their rebuild started in 2015.

Full rebuilds do not just happen. Kings just did one and it didn’t work. There’s not an ownership in the league who will look at that and say, “Ah okay, take a mulligan and trade everything away again. This one’s on me.” They are especially not open to a rebuild on the heels of a failed one.

I ask people who talk rebuild to name me a team who commenced two rebuilds within one decade. No one ever has an answer because it doesn’t happen.

Retools are breathers, and involve trading some roster players and focusing on developing young players for a couple years. These don’t always work either. Again, NSH. But they’re an easier sell to ownership. I’d like one of those now. But it’s not happening.

We can talk merits of a retool or hell even a rebuild, but what I bristle at is the idea that AEG is uniquely insidious for refusing to allow another rebuild so soon. It’s just not reality in this league.
 
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Clif said:
Maybe it’s just semantics for some, but the talk of needing to rebuild is such an in-the-bubble ask. Ownership groups hate rebuilds as they lose money and are risky. Especially in hockey where ticket sales is the major revenue driver. AEG greenlighted a rebuild in 2006 when Dean came on and again in 17-18.

The Penguins started their rebuild before Sidney Crosby was drafted. Never another one since.

The Ducks only started their first rebuild around the time they traded Perry.

This is the Sharks’ first rebuild. Ownership kicked and screamed into it. Hertl even resigned at first bases on the promise they wouldn’t rebuild.

Same for PHI. Ownership absolutely hated the idea.

CAL has continued to refuse to commit despite the evidence.

VAN is finally committing to an actual tear it down rebuild after ownership refused for years, despite others in the organization calling for it.

NSH tried to get cute and rush it.

Even TOR, who has hardly any assets, is talking retool right now vs. rebuild. Their rebuild started in 2015.

Full rebuilds do not just happen. Kings just did one and it didn’t work. There’s not an ownership in the league who will look at that and say, “Ah okay, take a mulligan and trade everything away again. This one’s on me.” They are especially not open a to a rebuild on the heels of a failed one.

I ask people who talk rebuild to name me a team who commenced two rebuilds within one decade. No one ever has an answer because it doesn’t happen.

Retools are breathers, and involve trading some roster players and focusing on developing young players for a couple years. These don’t always work either. Again, NSH. But they’re an easier sell to ownership. I’d like one of those now. But it’s not happening.

We can talk merits of a retool or hell even a rebuild, but what I bristle at is the idea that AEG is uniquely insidious for refusing to allow another rebuild so soon. It’s just not reality in this league.
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I agree, but honestly shouldn't every team be looking to retool each offseason in order to improve? It may look different from team to team, but I can't see most finding success by simply standing still.

For Ken, I expect there are a couple main goals.

1) fill holes (which will depend on who he is able to extend / who leaves the system
2) convert 1-2 roster spots each season from a vet to a younger player / prospect with more runway
3) upgrade positions where possible
4) continue to build the farm / prospect pool

The Kings have a current core in: Kempe, Panarin, Anderson and Doughty and future core members in: Byfield, Clarke, Laf and hopefully one of the goalie prospects. This does not scream "rebuild".

The point you make around ticket sales and two rebuilds in a decade is valid. Two rebuilds in one decade signifies failure across the Organization, financial losses and trust erosion in fans. It's just not going to happen, especially with multiple current and future core pieces in place.
 
I know I talk about a rebuild, however, Holland is not rebuilding with two years left on his contract. If this upcoming season is a disaster, and by disaster, not making the playoffs, what will he do with one year left on his contract.

Next season, 35 wins is not getting you into the playoffs. A so-called retool in the Pacific Division gets you sixth place. Next seasons top 4 in the Pacific.
1. Anaheim
2. Vegas
3. San Jose
4. Edmonton
 
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Clif said:
Maybe it’s just semantics for some, but the talk of needing to rebuild is such an in-the-bubble ask. Ownership groups hate rebuilds as they lose money and are risky. Especially in hockey where ticket sales is the major revenue driver. AEG greenlighted a rebuild in 2006 when Dean came on and again in 17-18.

The Penguins started their rebuild before Sidney Crosby was drafted. Never another one since.

The Ducks only started their first rebuild around the time they traded Perry.

This is the Sharks’ first rebuild. Ownership kicked and screamed into it. Hertl even resigned based on the promise they wouldn’t rebuild.

Same for PHI. Ownership absolutely hated the idea.

CAL has continued to refuse to commit despite the evidence.

VAN is finally committing to an actual tear it down rebuild after ownership refused for years, despite others in the organization calling for it.

NSH tried to get cute and rush it.

Even TOR, who has hardly any assets, is talking retool right now vs. rebuild. Their rebuild started in 2015.

Full rebuilds do not just happen. Kings just did one and it didn’t work. There’s not an ownership in the league who will look at that and say, “Ah okay, take a mulligan and trade everything away again. This one’s on me.” They are especially not open to a rebuild on the heels of a failed one.

I ask people who talk rebuild to name me a team who commenced two rebuilds within one decade. No one ever has an answer because it doesn’t happen.

Retools are breathers, and involve trading some roster players and focusing on developing young players for a couple years. These don’t always work either. Again, NSH. But they’re an easier sell to ownership. I’d like one of those now. But it’s not happening.

We can talk merits of a retool or hell even a rebuild, but what I bristle at is the idea that AEG is uniquely insidious for refusing to allow another rebuild so soon. It’s just not reality in this league.
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Good post, I am just not sure that I would say that the Kings recently did a "full rebuild" in 2017-18.

Trading Budaj, Cernak and some pics for 7 games of Ben Bishop, only to turn around and dump him for a 4th round pick does not sound like a "rebuild" type of move to me. Trading a struggling Pearson for a struggling (older) Hagelin was just a desperate move.

The Kings made a lot of moves during that time. It was more of a hodgepodge of trades that the Kings hoped would improve the team. However, all that was accomplished was losing some good assets. I did like seeing Iginla in a Kings jersey, though he was over the hill at the time.
 
ICE24 said:
I know I talk about a rebuild, however, Holland is not rebuilding with two years left on his contract. If this upcoming season is a disaster, and by disaster, not making the playoffs, what will he do with one year left on his contract.

Next season, 35 wins is not getting you into the playoffs. A so-called retool in the Pacific Division gets you sixth place. Next seasons top 4 in the Pacific.
1. Anaheim
2. Vegas
3. San Jose
4. Edmonton
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Seems a bit early to pen in a top 4 for next season given how much potential for change there is in the offseason.

Teams like Vegas, San Jose and Edmonton still have a lot of work to do in order to ensure they improve next season instead of decline.

Right now, the lone gem appears to be Anaheim who, by all accounts, should improve simply by icing the same roster.

Utah and Anaheim currently project to be the ones to watch out of the West. As good as Anaheim is, Utah's farm system is deep and has several prospects who project to be built for the playoffs.
 
symbology said:
Good post, I am just not sure that I would say that the Kings recently did a "full rebuild" in 2017-18.

Trading Budaj, Cernak and some pics for 7 games of Ben Bishop, only to turn around and dump him for a 4th round pick does not sound like a "rebuild" type of move to me. Trading a struggling Pearson for a struggling (older) Hagelin was just a desperate move.

The Kings made a lot of moves during that time. It was more of a hodgepodge of trades that the Kings hoped would improve the team. However, all that was accomplished was losing some good assets. I did like seeing Iginla in a Kings jersey, though he was over the hill at the time.
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Thanks. I’m talking the period that saw Blake trade Martinez, Clifford, Toffoli, Muzzin, Forbort and Carter. He left the “core four” and then iced a roster with rookies and bridge players. That’s the rebuild script, but he rushed it. Of course far too many prospects didn’t pan out either, which is probably the bigger issue.
 
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DryKing said:
Seems a bit early to pen in a top 4 for next season given how much potential for change there is in the offseason.

Teams like Vegas, San Jose and Edmonton still have a lot of work to do in order to ensure they improve next season instead of decline.

Right now, the lone gem appears to be Anaheim who, by all accounts, should improve simply by icing the same roster.

Utah and Anaheim currently project to be the ones to watch out of the West. As good as Anaheim is, Utah's farm system is deep and has several prospects who project to be built for the playoffs.
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True, I see SJ making a big jump due to another year of experience. Vegas and Edmonton are the wild cards, if they get a true #1 goalie it changes everything.
 
DryKing said:
I agree, but honestly shouldn't every team be looking to retool each offseason in order to improve? It may look different from team to team, but I can't see most finding success by simply standing still.

For Ken, I expect there are a couple main goals.

1) fill holes (which will depend on who he is able to extend / who leaves the system
2) convert 1-2 roster spots each season from a vet to a younger player / prospect with more runway
3) upgrade positions where possible
4) continue to build the farm / prospect pool

The Kings have a current core in: Kempe, Panarin, Anderson and Doughty and future core members in: Byfield, Clarke, Laf and hopefully one of the goalie prospects. This does not scream "rebuild".

The point you make around ticket sales and two rebuilds in a decade is valid. Two rebuilds in one decade signifies failure across the Organization, financial losses and trust erosion in fans. It's just not going to happen, especially with multiple current and future core pieces in place.
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I agree with steps 1-4 totally. I hope that’s what we get. I understand retooling as focusing more on acquiring assets than spending them, including sending out roster players.

But yes the key distinction for me is just articulating what a rebuild means and is and why we’re not seeing one. And why moreover we could never expect to. All you described is a part of why coupled with historic precedent throughout the league.
 
Clif said:
Thanks. I’m talking the period that saw Blake trade Martinez, Clifford, Toffoli, Muzzin, Forbort and Carter. He left the “core four” and then iced a roster with rookies and bridge players. That’s the rebuild script, but he rushed it. Of course far too many prospects didn’t pan out either, which is probably the bigger issue.
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Those trades happened over a number of years. Many of those players were replaced by the likes of Danault, Edler, Maata, Athanasiou. The point I was making is I do not see that as a "full rebuild". That was maybe a rebuild that was just getting started, that then flipping to a retool.

Some of those trades were good trades for younger prospects and pics. Some were awful trades due to prospects that never materialized. Others were just dumping dead weight for 3rd and 4th round pics allowing for signing some UFA's.
 
symbology said:
Those trades happened over a number of years. Many of those players were replaced by the likes of Danault, Edler, Maata, Athanasiou. The point I was making is I do not see that as a "full rebuild". That was maybe a rebuild that was just getting started, that then flipping to a retool.

Some of those trades were good trades for younger prospects and pics. Some were awful trades due to prospects that never materialized. Others were just dumping dead weight for 3rd and 4th round pics allowing for signing some UFA's.
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I think we’re landing in the same spot though framing it differently. But those trades all took place between 2018-2020, and it was a significant tear down of the current roster. What followed was two years of top 5 picks and a year of a top 10 pick. Bridge players and young players took their places. That’s the rebuild formula - until he abruptly pivoted.

Danault, Edler, and Arvy were acquired in 2021 after Blake said he didn’t blame Drew and Kopi for wanting to go through a long rebuild. So they didn’t. From that summer on he was officially building and adding established roster pieces. So if that means it’s not a “full rebuild” because it ended too soon, I’m with you on that. But at the onset it was.

In its wake current and future GMs have a case study in Blake’s tenure to analyze for false starts, poor drafting/development, poor roster management and ultimately the cost of ditching patience for impulsivity.
 
Clif said:
I think we’re landing in the same spot though framing it differently. But those trades all took place between 2018-2020, and it was a significant tear down of the current roster. What followed was two years of top 5 picks and a year of a top 10 pick. Bridge players and young players took their places. That’s the rebuild formula - until he abruptly pivoted.

Danault, Edler, and Arvy were acquired in 2021 after Blake said he didn’t blame Drew and Kopi for wanting to go through a long rebuild. So they didn’t. From that summer on he was officially building and adding established roster pieces. So if that means it’s not a “full rebuild” because it ended too soon, I’m with you on that. But at the onset it was.

In its wake current and future GMs have a case study in Blake’s tenure to analyze for false starts, poor drafting/development, poor roster management and ultimately the cost of ditching patience for impulsivity.
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Yeah, I think you are leaning towards it was more of a full rebuild than I am, but we are somewhat on the same page. Carter was not moved off until 2021. Maata and Athanasiou were acquired in 2020.

In 2018 the Kings brought in Hagelin, Kovalchuk, Thompson, Phaneuf (swap for Gaborik) and Pearson, Folin, Shore, Gaborik (swap for Phaneuf) were out. I would not classify these moves as a full on rebuild. That season the Kings sucked and landed the 5th overall pic. This top 5 draft pick was not acquired as part of a "full" rebuild. The team sucked. Many of the trades you mention had not happened yet. As I mentioned earlier, 2018 was more of a retool that failed and landed the Kings a top 5 pick.

The following year the Kings continued to suck. That is when Toffoli, Martinez, Forbort, Clifford and Campbell were moved at the TDL. They tanked enough that year to land QB at the draft. The "rebuild" phase was started and lasted a year. Before and after that it had been "retooling" IMO.

So, I would say a "full rebuild" was started, but it hardly even got going. IMO.
 
DryKing said:
Seems a bit early to pen in a top 4 for next season given how much potential for change there is in the offseason.

Teams like Vegas, San Jose and Edmonton still have a lot of work to do in order to ensure they improve next season instead of decline.

Right now, the lone gem appears to be Anaheim who, by all accounts, should improve simply by icing the same roster.

Utah and Anaheim currently project to be the ones to watch out of the West. As good as Anaheim is, Utah's farm system is deep and has several prospects who project to be built for the playoffs.
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Yes, a bit early, but that is a pretty good guess IMO.

For prospect depth, the Sharks, Ducks, Mammoth and Kraken are all looking pretty good. Knights, Kings and Oilers are looking very poor in comparison.

The Kings have a big hole with Kopi gone. They need a replacement and to also improve the roster in many other positions. That is a tough challenge.

Pretty much the rest of the Pacific is going to be looking to improve as well. Vegas more than any other team sort of have their hands tied with their cap usage. Though, those bastards always seem to find a way to make upgrades.
 
symbology said:
Yeah, I think you are leaning towards it was more of a full rebuild than I am, but we are somewhat on the same page. Carter was not moved off until 2021. Maata and Athanasiou were acquired in 2020.

In 2018 the Kings brought in Hagelin, Kovalchuk, Thompson, Phaneuf (swap for Gaborik) and Pearson, Folin, Shore, Gaborik (swap for Phaneuf) were out. I would not classify these moves as a full on rebuild. That season the Kings sucked and landed the 5th overall pic. This top 5 draft pick was not acquired as part of a "full" rebuild. The team sucked. Many of the trades you mention had not happened yet. As I mentioned earlier, 2018 was more of a retool that failed and landed the Kings a top 5 pick.

The following year the Kings continued to suck. That is when Toffoli, Martinez, Forbort, Clifford and Campbell were moved at the TDL. They tanked enough that year to land QB at the draft. The "rebuild" phase was started and lasted a year. Before and after that it had been "retooling" IMO.

So, I would say a "full rebuild" was started, but it hardly even got going. IMO.
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And then when it looked like the Kings were going in the right direction, Luc decided to hire Bergevin from Montreal to be his special advisor. Cue the PLD trade, the trading away of Walker, Durzi, and Spence, letting Roy and Gavrikov walk, and trading away some of our prospects. The Kings really paid the price after that and they're still reeling even after Bergevin finally left for Buffalo later this season. This debacle is on Luc for impulsively acting against his better judgment by hiring Bergevin in the first place.
 
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symbology said:
Yes, a bit early, but that is a pretty good guess IMO.

For prospect depth, the Sharks, Ducks, Mammoth and Kraken are all looking pretty good. Knights, Kings and Oilers are looking very poor in comparison.

The Kings have a big hole with Kopi gone. They need a replacement and to also improve the roster in many other positions. That is a tough challenge.

Pretty much the rest of the Pacific is going to be looking to improve as well. Vegas more than any other team sort of have their hands tied with their cap usage. Though, those bastards always seem to find a way to make upgrades.
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Agreed, it really projects to be a sellers market this off-season with a lot of teams looking to improve. It'll be interesting to see how it shakes out as it's likely most teams will have to overpay to make any upgrades.

On a side note, I am also surprised how quickly newly drafted players are making it to the NHL these days - and how much impact they are able to make once there. Eventually that may put more value on draft picks (even though they are a gamble) as it seems skilled players already in the NHL are in short supply.
 
Ok, I'm going to go against the grain and try to take a more positive look towards next season. We obviously need to figure out a top 2 C. But if we can figure that out and get a little more mobile out of the back I don't hate our team going into next year.

Panarin- 1C- Kempe
Fiala - Byfield - Laffy
Moore - Laughton(Resign) - Kuz?
Wright/Ward- Helenius-Malott

I think the biggest thing is the coach. I like the aggressiveness and physicality we brought with DJ, but not sure if he is the best going forward. Half of me wants to give him a shot while the other half wants to go get a proven coach and roll. As far as the defense it would obviously be ideal if we could replace one or two of the slower guys with more puck movers. Trading Doughty isn't likely. Trading Kuemper however is a good option. I don't think things are quite as bleak as everyone else assuming we can get a coach and hopefully a first line center via FA or trade.
 
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Has anyone heard when the Kings exit meetings are taking place?

One thing about rebuilds that makes me doubt them is that you have to commit years to them for them to work. But then there’s no guarantee they’ll work. Maybe you’re Pittsburgh or Chicago & you get Crosby or Kane. Or you’re Buffalo & get 2 #1’s but don’t make the playoffs for 14 years. Or you’re Columbus who occasionally gets bounced in the 1st round but mostly misses the playoffs. What category do we think the Kings will be? Hopefully the 1st. But we’ve never had a 1st overall since 1967, even when we sucked. I’d rather we retooled. Mix in some young guys with the vets. And then we’ll see how next year goes.
 
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