Hiller Hotseat Thread

[Bollocks]

You can only play the cards you’re dealt. In your premise, having McDavid and Draisaitl act a penalty against Holland’s success rate. To say that he and Blake are close is to say that Holland’s Oilers went on deep runs inevitably because of those two, and anything short of a Cup means Holland took defeat from the jaws of victory.

He still brought in the right players. I’d also say Ekholm is (or was) a better dman than Gavrikov and as bad as the Nurse contract was it didn’t set the team back as much as the PLD trade did the Kings. Blake drafted better but he failed to use his stockpile of prospects for impact players in return.

Holland’s team was 2 goals away from cementing him as the GM who brought back the first Cup to Canada since 1993. 2 goals away from not being the guy who couldn’t win with the best player in the world but being the guy who gave the best player in the world a proper lineup to win.

The Oilers miss Kane and Perry. They’re missing Hyman still to injury. They miss the players StL poached. You can see what the two best players in the world look like right now without a proper supporting cast.

But to your point about Blake, I’d say he finally got it right last year and if not for the village idiot coaching the team we’d have seen an awfully successful run from the Kings. And Blake would still be here and likely Gav and Spence and no Ceci. So success and failure and fates or franchises are sometimes, often times actually, just that close.

A couple of comments from my humble self:
- Hyman was a very good signing in hindsight but also A) a stroke of luck (Leafs were in cap trouble so they couldn't afford him; was cheaper as he was coming off of a season shortened by a torn ACL and was ineffective in the playoffs; could've easily aggravated his injury by now and become a failure, too) and B) Hyman would not sign had it not been for McD and Drai (his words) and would most likely never be nearly as successful goalscorer without such offensively gifted linemates; it is true though that Ken foresaw a good fit
- how much did the PLD trade set the Kings back, really? Had Rob not traded Vilardi, the Kings would've had quite inferior goaltending last season, where they were arguably one decision what to do with the puck away from advancing to the second round...the Kings would never outperform their competition with offensive talent with the team core being as it is; it was in hindsight a horrible trade but overall I don't think the Kings would be considerably more successful with Vilardi and Iafallo on the team; you could also argue Iafallo staying means no Foegele
- didn't Blake tell Luc he'd not continue as the GM before the failure of advancing to the 2nd round? I always assumed that decision was made prior to the playoffs...could be wrong though.

All in all...I just don't see enough to warrant saying Ken>Rob yet, in any capacity. Hiller is still an underwhelming coach, he failed to sign Marner and Gav and then signed Ceci...PROS: Perry has been great so far but he's old and fragile and it's questionable if he'll last...the Armia, Forsberg and Dumoulin are good signings, but the term for Dumo is worrying (but so was Edmundson's, so that's pretty much equal). The extension for Kempe wasn't handled very well.


The Kings being so high up the standings is both a blessing and a curse. Hiller is now unfireable and we can all feel the downswing coming...BUT - if some players get ther s*** together maybe it all ends (very) well. The question is why some of them suck so bad...if it's because of the coach, the prognosis for their resurgence isn't great.

 

[Clif]

- A couple of comments from my humble self:

Hyman was a very good signing in hindsight but also A) a stroke of luck (Leafs were in cap trouble so they couldn't afford him; was cheaper as he was coming off of a season shortened by a torn ACL and was ineffective in the playoffs; could've easily aggravated his injury by now and become a failure, too) and B) Hyman would not sign had it not been for McD and Drai (his words) and would most likely never be nearly as successful goalscorer without such offensively gifted linemates; it is true though that Ken foresaw a good fit
- how much did the PLD trade set the Kings back, really? Had Rob not traded Vilardi, the Kings would've had quite inferior goaltending last season, where they were arguably one decision what to do with the puck away from advancing to the second round...the Kings would never outperform their competition with offensive talent with the team core being as it is; it was in hindsight a horrible trade but overall I don't think the Kings would be considerably more successful with Vilardi and Iafallo on the team; you could also argue Iafallo staying means no Foegele
- didn't Blake tell Luc he'd not continue as the GM before the failure of advancing to the 2nd round? I always assumed that decision was made prior to the playoffs...could be wrong though.

All in all...I just don't see enough to warrant saying Ken>Rob yet, in any capacity. Hiller is still an underwhelming coach, he failed to sign Marner and Gav and then signed Ceci...PROS: Perry has been great so far but he's old and fragile and it's questionable if he'll last...the Armia, Forsberg and Dumoulin are good signings, but the term for Dumo is worrying (but so was Edmundson's, so that's pretty much equal). The extension for Kempe wasn't handled very well.


The Kings being so high up the standings is both a blessing and a curse. Hiller is now unfireable and we can all feel the downswing coming...BUT - if some players get ther s*** together maybe it all ends (very) well. The question is why some of them suck so bad...if it's because of the coach, the prognosis for their resurgence isn't great.

Hey good post. Appreciate the added perspective on Hyman.

Clearly Kuemper has worked out huge for the Kings so far, but it doesn’t detract from the PLD trade being a disaster that at the time did set this team back. This gets into impossible realities territory if we speculate on the state of the team had Blake never made that trade, but I don’t mean it to say this team should have all those guys traded and Talbot. Some if not all of those players were being traded regardless. Just on its face, that trade was even worse than Nurse’s contract so if we’re comparing GMs that’s notable.

Holland’s biggest failure so far appears to be retaining Hiller. Given he reportedly upped the offer to Gavrikov twice, I’d argue if Holland had anything to do with losing Gavy it may have been tied to Gavy not wanting to play for Hiller. But it’s also clear Gavy ended up having one team in mind and that was NYR. Marner for sure had one team in mind in Vegas.

My main thesis here is that Holland was two goals away from achieving the pinnacle of success in 5 seasons whereas Blake took 8 seasons to achieve 5 first round exits. That’s not a high bar for Holland to pass, and even Hiller be damned this team might just win a round this year if they open against Vegas or Anaheim. Both have shoddy defense. Which, who knows, could be the biggest nightmare of all if it means Hiller is the coach to start next season too.

 

[DryKing]

Clearly Kuemper has worked out huge for the Kings so far, but it doesn’t detract from the PLD trade being a disaster that at the time did set this team back. This gets into impossible realities territory if we speculate on the state of the team had Blake never made that trade, but I don’t mean it to say this team should have all those guys traded and Talbot. Some if not all of those players were being traded regardless. Just on its face, that trade was even worse than Nurse’s contract so if we’re comparing GMs that’s notable.

I see it a bit differently. Most of us felt the PLD trade was bad from the start, moreso due to the AAV of the extension signed rather than the trade itself. Blake, and company, took a big swing when they acquired PLD knowing he had the potentially to be exactly what the Kings needed at the time, and even further once Kopitar retired. It did not work out, but Blake, and company, pivoted and flipped PLD for a vital piece of the Kings roster (Kuemper). I have to respect the chance they took, and the correction they made (saying they as it was not Blake alone). Teams need to swing for the home run now and then.

Holland’s biggest failure so far appears to be retaining Hiller. Given he reportedly upped the offer to Gavrikov twice, I’d argue if Holland had anything to do with losing Gavy it may have been tied to Gavy not wanting to play for Hiller. But it’s also clear Gavy ended up having one team in mind and that was NYR. Marner for sure had one team in mind in Vegas.

Not to defend Holland on this one, but I really do not think he was given a choice other than to keep Hiller on, at least initially. Holland seems methodical and hopefully has a plan in place. His biggest shortcoming so far, imo, is giving certain FA acquisitions too much term and/or AAV. It could be argued that he had to in order to attract them to sign in LA, however.

My main thesis here is that Holland was two goals away from achieving the pinnacle of success in 5 seasons whereas Blake took 8 seasons to achieve 5 first round exits. That’s not a high bar for Holland to pass, and even Hiller be damned this team might just win a round this year if they open against Vegas or Anaheim. Both have shoddy defense. Which, who knows, could be the biggest nightmare of all if it means Hiller is the coach to start next season too.

To be fair, Blake put together a solid enough roster to be a contender. His biggest mistake was found in the HC's he selected. I would argue, however, that the Kings were 1 above-average HC away from making a deep run the past few seasons. Remember, they took Edmonton to game 7 without Doughty available. This doesn't scream roster shortage to me.


Fair point on Holland though. Hopefully he can find a way to get the Kings over the finish-line and hoist the Cup during his tenure. It will be very interesting to see what he can pull up via trade and/or free agency to fill the gap Kopitar leaves behind when he retires.

 

[emsomaso]

I posted this in the GDT thread, but it’s so bad it ”deserves” being highlighted here too…

In the last 8 games, Kings has scored 1 or 2 goals in 6 of them!!!!! The other 2 games they ”exploded” for 3 and 4 goals, but still lost both…

I effin loathe this joke for a coach and his boring and IQ lacking game ”plan”!!

 

[Bollocks]

Hey good post. Appreciate the added perspective on Hyman.

Clearly Kuemper has worked out huge for the Kings so far, but it doesn’t detract from the PLD trade being a disaster that at the time did set this team back. This gets into impossible realities territory if we speculate on the state of the team had Blake never made that trade, but I don’t mean it to say this team should have all those guys traded and Talbot. Some if not all of those players were being traded regardless. Just on its face, that trade was even worse than Nurse’s contract so if we’re comparing GMs that’s notable.

Holland’s biggest failure so far appears to be retaining Hiller. Given he reportedly upped the offer to Gavrikov twice, I’d argue if Holland had anything to do with losing Gavy it may have been tied to Gavy not wanting to play for Hiller. But it’s also clear Gavy ended up having one team in mind and that was NYR. Marner for sure had one team in mind in Vegas.

My main thesis here is that Holland was two goals away from achieving the pinnacle of success in 5 seasons whereas Blake took 8 seasons to achieve 5 first round exits. That’s not a high bar for Holland to pass, and even Hiller be damned this team might just win a round this year if they open against Vegas or Anaheim. Both have shoddy defense. Which, who knows, could be the biggest nightmare of all if it means Hiller is the coach to start next season too.

Nurse's contract is palpable only because the cap is rising significantly. Otherwise it's even worse than PLD's. It's true though that Rob sent significant assets in the S&T for PLD, so that's definitely a huge minus.

Regarding Gavrikov:

Holland says he upped ex-Kings GM Blake's offer to Gavrikov, still no deal done

The Los Angeles Kings are running out of time to sign pending unrestricted free agent Vladislav Gavrikov before he hits the open market.

www.tsn.ca

“Rob Blake had made an offer, and I went beyond that offer, and so now we are continuing to talk, and I think I made another offer, so we’ll see,” Holland told reporters, per the Orange County Register.

Gavrikov, 29, is the second-highest ranked defenceman among TSN's Top 50 free agents and listed at No. 6 overall. TSN's Frankie Corrado projected last week that Gavrikov's next contract will hold an average annual value of $7.5 million.

“Probably dollars," he added of what's holding up a signing. "We’re prepared to do a long-term deal. Rob Blake offered a deal, and I extended it."

To me this seems very "murky". He THINKS he made another offer? PROBABLY dollars, not the term?

Gav signed with NY for 7 million. NY doesn't have much lower taxes. I doubt he asked for a lot more than 8. I'm pretty darn certain he lowballed Gav, possibly because he knew Ceci at 4 million + Gav at 8 would look iffy. If you ask me - he really wanted Ceci, for some wild reason, and decided to lowball Gav and had Dumoulin as plan B ready from the get-go.


And the "2 goals away from SC winners" theory is fine and dandy, but this goes both ways - Rob's Kings were quite possibly 2 better decisions (from Hiller and QB) away from eliminating them in the 1st round. The question remains: did the Oilers get so close because of Ken or in spite of him? He failed to address some key areas of that team in 5 years. I just don't see how he has a better managerial toolbox to build a winner out of an underperforming team with its stars in aging decline. He's at best a lateral move so far and another "buddy" hire.

And why the *hell* did he give Hiller a 3-year contract? Did Hiller magically have a significant leverage in the negotiations? That's a super naive move - an unproven head coach with a significant playoff blunder, and a new GM that could easily use him as a "scapegoat" (because he wasn't his hire) gives him a three f*****g year extension?

If Rob had done that the fans would skin him alive by now.

 

[Clif]

I see it a bit differently. Most of us felt the PLD trade was bad from the start, moreso due to the AAV of the extension signed rather than the trade itself. Blake, and company, took a big swing when they acquired PLD knowing he had the potentially to be exactly what the Kings needed at the time, and even further once Kopitar retired. It did not work out, but Blake, and company, pivoted and flipped PLD for a vital piece of the Kings roster (Kuemper). I have to respect the chance they took, and the correction they made (saying they as it was not Blake alone). Teams need to swing for the home run now and then.




Not to defend Holland on this one, but I really do not think he was given a choice other than to keep Hiller on, at least initially. Holland seems methodical and hopefully has a plan in place. His biggest shortcoming so far, imo, is giving certain FA acquisitions too much term and/or AAV. It could be argued that he had to in order to attract them to sign in LA, however.




To be fair, Blake put together a solid enough roster to be a contender. His biggest mistake was found in the HC's he selected. I would argue, however, that the Kings were 1 above-average HC away from making a deep run the past few seasons. Remember, they took Edmonton to game 7 without Doughty available. This doesn't scream roster shortage to me.


Fair point on Holland though. Hopefully he can find a way to get the Kings over the finish-line and hoist the Cup during his tenure. It will be very interesting to see what he can pull up via trade and/or free agency to fill the gap Kopitar leaves behind when he retires.

Another good post. I don’t disagree with what you said on PLD either framed that way, and certainly the PLD recovery in offloading him without salary retained was a masterwork by Blake. I only bring it up because the first thing anyone says when complaining about Holland is the Nurse contract. To which I say okay what other move there was so bad? Blake had PLD.

I’d be surprised Holland would want to be a GM again bad enough he’d let Luc force him to retain Hiller. What do I really know on that? Nothing. But that sounds so weak.

I agree Blake did a pretty good job overall. I liked Blake here more than most posters. My contention here is in addressing the idea that Holland had a poor tenure with EDM, or that the Oilers reached the game 7 of Finals in spite of his bumbling. That’s inaccurate.

 

[Clif]

Nurse's contract is palpable only because the cap is rising significantly. Otherwise it's even worse than PLD's. It's true though that Rob sent significant assets in the S&T for PLD, so that's definitely a huge minus.

Regarding Gavrikov:

Holland says he upped ex-Kings GM Blake's offer to Gavrikov, still no deal done

The Los Angeles Kings are running out of time to sign pending unrestricted free agent Vladislav Gavrikov before he hits the open market.

www.tsn.ca

To me this seems very "murky". He THINKS he made another offer? PROBABLY dollars, not the term?

Gav signed with NY for 7 million. NY doesn't have much lower taxes. I doubt he asked for a lot more than 8. I'm pretty darn certain he lowballed Gav, possibly because he knew Ceci at 4 million + Gav at 8 would look iffy. If you ask me - he really wanted Ceci, for some wild reason, and decided to lowball Gav and had Dumoulin as plan B ready from the get-go.


And the "2 goals away from SC winners" theory is fine and dandy, but this goes both ways - Rob's Kings were quite possibly 2 better decisions (from Hiller and QB) away from eliminating them in the 1st round. The question remains: did the Oilers get so close because of Ken or in spite of him? He failed to address some key areas of that team in 5 years. I just don't see how he has a better managerial toolbox to build a winner out of an underperforming team with its stars in aging decline. He's at best a lateral move so far and another "buddy" hire.

And why the *hell* did he give Hiller a 3-year contract? Did Hiller magically have a significant leverage in the negotiations? That's a super naive move - an unproven head coach with a significant playoff blunder, and a new GM that could easily use him as a "scapegoat" (because he wasn't his hire) gives him a three f*****g year extension?

If Rob had done that the fans would skin him alive by now.

Gav was making 5.85. This means Blake upped the offer from there. If Holland upped it further, and Gav signed for 7M, there’s no room for Holland to have low-balled him.

FWIW, Holland low-balling Kempe was well-documented, including by Dennis Bernstein. This was not reported with the Gavi offer.

I have said the exact same thing that Blake was a QB clear away from potentially having built a team that made the Finals. I have also said Dean Lombardi was arguably 3 regular season goals going the other way from being fired and this team still searching for its first Cup. I am consistent in recognizing the razor’s edge legacies dance on. Which is why I argue it’s bad faith to dismiss what Holland did in EDM as a total failure.

Good news is Holland didn’t extend Hiller. Bad news is just what we’ve seen, that he didn’t fire him.

 

[Statue4Deano]

I believe we’re potentially weeks away from Hiller getting the boot. If this team isn’t firmly in a playoff spot by Jan 1, Hiller is certainly done.

It’s also the part of the season where a 4 or 5 game losing streak could push the front office over the edge.

Looking at the schedule I see a stretch from Dec. 8 to 18 where 5 of 6 games are on the road and if the Kings go into a tailspin in that stretch Holland will drop the hammer to try to salvage the 2nd half of the season. Calling it now.

If Hiller is still the coach on Jan. 2 the front office will ride out the season with him.

 

[Bollocks]

Gav was making 5.85. This means Blake upped the offer from there. If Holland upped it further, and Gav signed for 7M, there’s no room for Holland to have low-balled him.

FWIW, Holland low-balling Kempe was well-documented, including by Dennis Bernstein. This was not reported with the Gavi offer.

I have said the exact same thing that Blake was a QB clear away from potentially having built a team that made the Finals. I have also said Dean Lombardi was arguably 3 regular season goals going the other way from being fired and this team still searching for its first Cup. I am consistent in recognizing the razor’s edge legacies dance on. Which is why I argue it’s bad faith to dismiss what Holland did in EDM as a total failure.

Good news is Holland didn’t extend Hiller. Bad news is just what we’ve seen, that he didn’t fire him.

If his preference was NYR, but was willing to play for LA for higher amount of $, then offering at most 7 and calling it quits is kind of a lowballing, or, in other words, he didn't *really* want to commit to him. I mean, that's fine, but if his plan was to use that money to sign Dumo and Ceci...that's quite a blunder then, if he wants to build a winner.

It wasn't a "total failure", I just don't see it as a good enough CV "flex" in order to hire him. Though it's questionable what the alternatives were...

Ah, my bad regarding resigning Hiller. I misread a headline. Well, that's a big poop on Rob's name...

What a depressing period for this team.

 

[santiclaws]

DD is skating in a regular jersey. Hopefully it means his return is imminent. And if you think Hiller is getting fired in January if the Kings are still within a point or two of the division lead, you're nuts.

 

[What party?]

I posted this in the GDT thread, but it’s so bad it ”deserves” being highlighted here too…

In the last 8 games, Kings has scored 1 or 2 goals in 6 of them!!!!! The other 2 games they ”exploded” for 3 and 4 goals, but still lost both…

I effin loathe this joke for a coach and his boring and IQ lacking game ”plan”!!

I'm with the Swede on this one. How is every team more fun to watch than the Kings? Key-rist. There is no way people are going to pay to watch this...

We are through the looking glass people! Which means, Hiller can absolutely be fired by January (she typed knowing full well the criticism in gif form was to follow) and replaced by Peter Forsberg.

 

[Statue4Deano]

My money is in Babcock getting the call if Hiller is shown the door.

 

[Clif]

My money is in Babcock getting the call if Hiller is shown the door.

He can look through my phone and comment on vacation pictures for all I care. Hiller has made me open to all kinds of coaches, even this psychopath.

 

[Birdman]

Coaching change can be made during the Olympic break.

And the coach he should bring back for Kopi’s last stretch run, is Darryl Sutter.

 

[emsomaso]

I'm with the Swede on this one. How is every team more fun to watch than the Kings? Key-rist. There is no way people are going to pay to watch this...

And the Swede agrees with you!

Hiller makes them play so unbelievably boring so for the first time since getting the TV channels to watch every game here in Sweden, I’ve by own choice missed or turned of games, the Washington game being the latest.

I just don’t care if I miss some since I basically don’t miss anything either way. They don’t score, hit, fight or even seem to care! It just 60 minutes of nothing…

Yes, I know there have been MANY Kings teams that have been WAY worse than this one, but I personally can’t remember a more boring and bland team! Heck, even the awful mid to late 90s teams with legends like Khristich, Olczyk and Yachmenyov had players like Laperriere, O’Donnell, Zmolek and Johnson that at least made you wake up during the games…

 

[emsomaso]

DD is skating in a regular jersey. Hopefully it means his return is imminent. And if you think Hiller is getting fired in January if the Kings are still within a point or two of the division lead, you're nuts.

Yes, there will never be a coaching change if it looks like right now. And that is what makes this even worse, that the organization simply doesn’t seem to care how bland and boring the product is as long as the points (or more importantly, the money) keeps rolling in.

 

[Dr. Tran]

I just want to see for the next game the same line combinations as the last game. And I want to see Hiller stick with that lineup through the whole game. Stop putting lines in a blender halfway through the game. Let the lines actually develop some chemistry.

 

[Bollocks]

I'm with the Swede on this one. How is every team more fun to watch than the Kings? Key-rist. There is no way people are going to pay to watch this...

We are through the looking glass people! Which means, Hiller can absolutely be fired by January (she typed knowing full well the criticism in gif form was to follow) and replaced by Peter Forsberg.

If this team played fun hockey that's very likely to fail in the playoffs, half of the fanbase would be upset with that, too, as it would be "catering to casuals" and not "playoff hockey".

I'm OK with hockey that's not very fun to watch, with plenty of effort to be defensively responsible and tought to play against, but make it at least a 3-2, not 2-1 league, and show some willingness to go in the 4-2 territory before the goalie gets pulled (and then maybe even 5-2 if, God forbid, someone scores the empty netter). That would be plenty enough!

 

[emsomaso]

If this team played fun hockey that's very likely to fail in the playoffs, half of the fanbase would be upset with that, too, as it would be "catering to casuals" and not "playoff hockey".

I'm OK with hockey that's not very fun to watch, with plenty of effort to be defensively responsible and tought to play against, but make it at least a 3-2, not 2-1 league, and show some willingness to go in the 4-2 territory before the goalie gets pulled (and then maybe even 5-2 if, God forbid, someone scores the empty netter). That would be plenty enough!

Agree. I can live with regular boring, heck I survived the mid to late 90s versions of Kings hockey, but I can’t stand Hiller’s version of the most boring hockey ever combined with stupid decisions over and over again.

 

[What party?]

If this team played fun hockey that's very likely to fail in the playoffs, half of the fanbase would be upset with that, too, as it would be "catering to casuals" and not "playoff hockey".

I'm OK with hockey that's not very fun to watch, with plenty of effort to be defensively responsible and tought to play against, but make it at least a 3-2, not 2-1 league, and show some willingness to go in the 4-2 territory before the goalie gets pulled (and then maybe even 5-2 if, God forbid, someone scores the empty netter). That would be plenty enough!

Fair enough, B but it all just so joyless. I know my last post was just goofing around with Emsomaso while respecting his heritage but staying with the Swedish theme but what if we did have someone on staff that inspired our goal scores to be more dynamic? Like a Mr. Forsberg? Yes, he's a unicorn but sometimes being around a unicorn inspires some while intimidating others, Kevin and Adrian could get inspired. Is that not all we really want?