Kempe Contract Watch Thread

[VCRW]

Stutzle has 14 points in 13 games. Byfield has 10 points in 13 games. Let’s maybe tap the brakes on calling Stutzle an elite scorer. Especially when you consider that Byfield plays in one of the most conservative offensive systems in the NHL while Stutzle plays in one of the highest scoring.

Your consistent support for Q is admirable. But he just isn't going to be a Barkov or a Scheifele or a McKinnon. I love the guy, but his ceiling is not as high as the elite 1Cs around the league. It's gonna leave a big hole when Kopi leaves.

Stutzle brings the same attributes that motivated the Kings to go after Mitch Marner so hard. And I can think of several bad management moves that may have never occurred had the Kings taken Stutzle over Q.

 

[Statue4Deano]

Your consistent support for Q is admirable. But he just isn't going to be a Barkov or a Scheifele or a McKinnon. I love the guy, but his ceiling is not as high as the elite 1Cs around the league. It's gonna leave a big hole when Kopi leaves.

Stutzle brings the same attributes that motivated the Kings to go after Mitch Marner so hard. And I can think of several bad management moves that may have never occurred had the Kings taken Stutzle over Q.

The Kings didn’t need a top 10 scoring Center to win 2 Cups. They needed a 20 minute a night Center who can drive possession while playing a 2-way defensively responsible game and leading the team in scoring. Byfield isn’t Kopitar but he’s well on his way to being someone in the same mold. Tim Stutzle will never be that player.

 

[DryKing]

I never said QB is not good. I like QB, maybe my favorite King these past few years. Also, over the past few years I have done a fair amount of defending him and his development. I just disagree that right now he is a "Top" 2-way center with only 6-8 having a better overall game than him. I feel that there are a lot of really good centers in the NHL and I think you are over valuing him a bit. You believe he will be ready to take over for Kopi next year. My opinion is that he should be stepping up and doing that this year. He is almost there, but he needs to "get there" before I will consider him a legit "Top" 2-way center.

Apologies if it came off that way I was not alluding to saying you didn't think Byfield was good, I was just providing the AI response (which I found interesting) and analytics to support why I feel he is good.

The key point to my argument is two-way game. There are quite a few Centers in the league with a better offensive game (which seems to be the main thing most fans focus on), but how many of them received a selke vote last season? How many are able to keep pace with McDavid defensively? How many are able to match the analytic stats of Byfield? The answer is less than you may think. Byfield has also put up a 0.63 PPG average in the playoffs while playing solid defense which, once again, puts him in select company when it comes to Centers in this league.

You think I am over-hyping him by calling him a top 5-8 two-way center in the league (mind you I said two-way center, not center)? That's totally fair as any such statement is subjective and much of what differentiates him from others are not things that show up on the stat sheet. However, when you look at the skill and intangibles he brings I can back my statement which I clearly state is subjective and opinion.

 

[symbology]

Stutzle has 14 points in 13 games. Byfield has 10 points in 13 games. Let’s maybe tap the brakes on calling Stutzle an elite scorer. Especially when you consider that Byfield plays in one of the most conservative offensive systems in the NHL while Stutzle plays in one of the highest scoring.

I think I get what you are saying, but at the same time some NHL folks call Kempe an elite scorer. Scoring 45 goals in a season makes one elite, I guess. Stutzle has outscored Kempe over the past 3 years. Stutzle has scored 39 goals and 90 points in single season. So, if someone says Stutzle is elite... one can argue that he is IMO.

 

[VCRW]

The Kings didn’t need a top 10 scoring Center to win 2 Cups. They needed a 20 minute a night Center who can drive possession while playing a 2-way defensively responsible game and leading the team in scoring. Byfield isn’t Kopitar but he’s well on his way to being someone in the same mold. Tim Stutzle will never be that player.

I agree with your assessment of Byfield, the player. That’s exactly who he is. And we love the kid. Just saying it doesn’t look to me as though he is going to become the dominating 2-way weapon we dreamed he might become when he was first drafted.

We all felt Blake made the right choice at the time. But I also enjoy speculating about how different the roster might have been had Stutzle been the pick. My belief is that Blake wouldn’t have made some of his most grievous errors.

 

[symbology]

Apologies if it came off that way I was not alluding to saying you didn't think Byfield was good, I was just providing the AI response (which I found interesting) and analytics to support why I feel he is good.

The key point to my argument is two-way game. There are quite a few Centers in the league with a better offensive game (which seems to be the main thing most fans focus on), but how many of them received a selke vote last season? How many are able to keep pace with McDavid defensively? How many are able to match the analytic stats of Byfield? The answer is less than you may think. Byfield has also put up a 0.63 PPG average in the playoffs while playing solid defense which, once again, puts him in select company when it comes to Centers in this league.

You think I am over-hyping him by calling him a top 5-8 two-way center in the league (mind you I said two-way center, not center)? That's totally fair as any such statement is subjective and much of what differentiates him from others are not things that show up on the stat sheet. However, when you look at the skill and intangibles he brings I can back my statement which I clearly state is subjective and opinion.

I guess it all depends on how you look at things. Stats and analytics are useful and great. They never tell the whole story though. Case in point Spence has generally had pretty good stats thorough his career. Some even better than QB's. This season his is a point per game player. A PPG defensemen with great stats that has been riding the pine for 6 out of the last 7 games.

Going back to QB, he has played some really great games and some not so good games. He needs to be more consistent and he needs to read the game better, IMO. His FO % is also pretty low for a top 2-way center.

I have faith that he will get there. Same faith I had a few years ago when I argued against a lot of folks on this board to give the kid more time.

 

[emsomaso]

Reality check. Kopi is playing but with 2nd/3rd liner stats. Danault is playing like a 4th liner (along with Turcotte). Byfield is indeed a two way center but under performing on offense and there is a term for that: 3rd line center or marginal 2nd liner. As much as I hate repeating myself--the Kings have no realistic choice other than going for another rebuild. They will likely have to wait for the deadline to move Kempe. It is unlikely to find a win win trade with a team that he will want to sign a long term deal. So they will get what they can get at the TDL.

Seriously? In what reality are Byfield’s 10 points in 13 games (a 63 points in 82 games pace) the equivalent of a ”3rd line center or marginal 2nd liner”?

I agree that the Byfield believers (like myself) may overvalue him and that we might be to optimistic, but come on! Show me which team that have a ”3rd line center or marginal 2nd liner” that is as good as him?

And bashing QB for not being (or going to be) as good as Kopitar as some do in this thread is ”maybe” a bit harsh since Kopi is the best King player ever…

Yes, we who support Byfield need to be realistic about his current play and his potential, but that goes the other way too…

 

[symbology]

The Kings didn’t need a top 10 scoring Center to win 2 Cups. They needed a 20 minute a night Center who can drive possession while playing a 2-way defensively responsible game and leading the team in scoring. Byfield isn’t Kopitar but he’s well on his way to being someone in the same mold. Tim Stutzle will never be that player.

Um what?

I think the facts disagree with you.

The truth is, Kopi ranked 9th in points out of all centers in the 3 seasons between 2012-13 and 2014-15.

Jeff Carter was 25th during this same time and the Kings went to the WCF each year and won 2 cups.

Between the 21-22 and 24-25 seasons Kopitar was ranked 26th and Danault 52nd. During this time the Kings have not won a single playoff series.

It sure seems like a top 10 scoring center is very handy thing to have for the playoffs.

 

[Halfwall]

Seriously? In what reality are Byfield’s 10 points in 13 games (a 63 points in 82 games pace) the equivalent of a ”3rd line center or marginal 2nd liner”?

I agree that the Byfield believers (like myself) may overvalue him and that we might be to optimistic, but come on! Show me which team that have a ”3rd line center or marginal 2nd liner” that is as good as him?

And bashing QB for not being (or going to be) as good as Kopitar as some do in this thread is ”maybe” a bit harsh since Kopi is the best King player ever…

Yes, we who support Byfield need to be realistic about his current play and his potential, but that goes the other way too…

You're right, his production (.77 per game) is a mid level 2nd line C.

 

[symbology]

You're right, his production (.77 per game) is a mid level 2nd line C.

The correct way to say it, is QB at .77 pts per game is a 3rd line center on a current cup winning team.

Carter Verhaeghe has averaged .80 pt per game over the last 2 seasons where he has won the cup.

Ryan Nugent Hopkins who has made it to the finals those same 2 years has averaged .73 pts per game. He lost both times.

QB has average .68 pts per game over that same span. This year, he is currently on a record pace at .77 pts per game.

 

[emsomaso]

You're right, his production (.77 per game) is a mid level 2nd line C.

Last season only 7 to 9 teams (depending on if you see some players as centers or wingers) had second line centers that scored at a 63 points pace or more.

And many teams didn’t even have a first line center scoring at Byfield’s current pace, so not even your adjusted latest comment is anywhere near to be correct…

By hey, I guess facts are not that important when trying to make a point! ;-)

 

[Halfwall]

Last season only 7 to 9 teams (depending on if you see some players as centers or wingers) had second line centers that scored at a 63 points pace or more.

And many teams didn’t even have a first line center scoring at Byfield’s current pace, so not even your adjusted latest comment is anywhere near to be correct…

By hey, I guess facts are not that important when trying to make a point!

You're the one missing the point. This is the year the Kings are all in on winning a cup. They needed Byfield to break out and take the number one C and it ain't happening.

 

[symbology]

You're the one missing the point. This is the year the Kings are all in on winning a cup. They needed Byfield to break out and take the number one C and it ain't happening.

This brings up an important topic.

"Rob Blake's Mini Rebuild"

Rob Blake chose to do a mini rebuild while the Kings still had the core players around. Brown retired and he traded Quick (in a not so pleasant manner) . The goal was to make a run at another cup before Kopi / Drew were gone. Well, we all know that this has not happened yet. This is the last year that this is even an option.

This brings us to Halfwall's point, this is supposed to be go all in year. Problem is, this team is sort of falling on its face out of the gate. Yes, it is still kind of early, but before you know it 1/4 of the season will be gone. So, fans can look at this season and think well shoot, it does not look like it is going to happen. 13 games played and TWO regulation wins.

What happens then? They start to look to the future, a Kings future without Kopitar. Then they realize this team, not only does not look good enough to win a playoff round this year, but next year DD is going to be older, Kopi will be gone and this team is going to kind of suck. Well, what are the Team's options for getting out of that suckage? Sign UFA's? Nope, they do not wan to come to LA. Unless they are PLD and just wanted to live at the beach and make $. Maybe the Team can use some of those assets they have to make moves? Nope, they have very few quality assets in the farm. This team is not in a good place. Some fans are more frustrated than others. Other fans have a more positive outlook on things.

I think the problem for some, is that this is the last chance for the Kings to do anything in the playoffs for a while. The grass does not look green on this side, and it ain't going to be any greener on the other side.

Oh, and this dude named Juice, he either has not been given a decent contract to sign, or he does not want to sign it. So, there is that as well.

 

[emsomaso]

You're the one missing the point. This is the year the Kings are all in on winning a cup. They needed Byfield to break out and take the number one C and it ain't happening.

No, it’s you who now are changing the focus of what you and I were discussing.

I only disagreed on the fact that you first said Byfield is a 3rd liner center or at best a marginal 2nd line center and then you changed that to him being only an average 2nd line center, both statements are simply not true.

Regarding that we need him to be a true 1st line center I completely agree with you. But we seem far apart regarding if he is that right now or even has the potential to be one. I also agree with the fact that we unfortunately seem to be far away from being a true SC contender.

Now let’s focus on the Winnipeg game! GKG!!

 

[Statue4Deano]

Um what?

I think the facts disagree with you.

The truth is, Kopi ranked 9th in points out of all centers in the 3 seasons between 2012-13 and 2014-15.

Jeff Carter was 25th during this same time and the Kings went to the WCF each year and won 2 cups.

Between the 21-22 and 24-25 seasons Kopitar was ranked 26th and Danault 52nd. During this time the Kings have not won a single playoff series.

It sure seems like a top 10 scoring center is very handy thing to have for the playoffs.

A top 10 scoring Center is in no way equivalent to a Top 10 scorer.

 

[DryKing]

Last season only 7 to 9 teams (depending on if you see some players as centers or wingers) had second line centers that scored at a 63 points pace or more.

And many teams didn’t even have a first line center scoring at Byfield’s current pace, so not even your adjusted latest comment is anywhere near to be correct…

By hey, I guess facts are not that important when trying to make a point! ;-)

To add to this with a recent example - 20/21 the Canadians made it to the SC Finals with their top center (Suzuki) average 0.71 PPG and 0.73 PPG in the playoffs. Their second line center, Danault, averaged 0.45 PPG during the regular season and 0.18 PPG during the playoffs that year.

But clearly, according to others, they were not a contender based on their stats and Byfield at a 0.77 PPG pace could not be a L1 center on a contending team...

 

[DryKing]

This brings up an important topic.

"Rob Blake's Mini Rebuild"

Rob Blake chose to do a mini rebuild while the Kings still had the core players around. Brown retired and he traded Quick (in a not so pleasant manner) . The goal was to make a run at another cup before Kopi / Drew were gone. Well, we all know that this has not happened yet. This is the last year that this is even an option.

This brings us to Halfwall's point, this is supposed to be go all in year. Problem is, this team is sort of falling on its face out of the gate. Yes, it is still kind of early, but before you know it 1/4 of the season will be gone. So, fans can look at this season and think well shoot, it does not look like it is going to happen. 13 games played and TWO regulation wins.

What happens then? They start to look to the future, a Kings future without Kopitar. Then they realize this team, not only does not look good enough to win a playoff round this year, but next year DD is going to be older, Kopi will be gone and this team is going to kind of suck. Well, what are the Team's options for getting out of that suckage? Sign UFA's? Nope, they do not wan to come to LA. Unless they are PLD and just wanted to live at the beach and make $. Maybe the Team can use some of those assets they have to make moves? Nope, they have very few quality assets in the farm. This team is not in a good place. Some fans are more frustrated than others. Other fans have a more positive outlook on things.

I think the problem for some, is that this is the last chance for the Kings to do anything in the playoffs for a while. The grass does not look green on this side, and it ain't going to be any greener on the other side.

Oh, and this dude named Juice, he either has not been given a decent contract to sign, or he does not want to sign it. So, there is that as well.

The Kings were supposed to be all-in the last 4 years. Out of those years, this season season seems the be the farthest away from being a contender yet. The problem in coaching, and lack of vision by the management of the organization more than the roster.

Also Blake signed several legitimate additions in free agency. LA may not be signing tier 1 FAs (which are extremely rare to hit the market and less than 10% of teams seem to be able to do when they are available) but they can sign key additions and build a contender similar to 2012 / 2014 through trades and acquisitions if they have a solid vision. The lack of vision falls on Luc and Holland (though less so) and couple with AHL level coaching by Hiller - all of which need to go for the franchise to find success.

 

[symbology]

A top 10 scoring Center is in no way equivalent to a Top 10 scorer.

You moving the goal post? You said "The Kings didn’t need a top 10 scoring Center to win 2 Cups".

Regardless, between 2012-2016 Kopi was ranked 16th in overall scoring in the NHL. Between 2021-2024 Kopi was ranked 49th overall. Either way you want to look at it, the older and slower Kopitar is not as effective as the younger Kopitar. The Kings have not had a top end 1C for a while. Regardless of how good Kopi has played and continues to play.

Also, the Team has not been able to replace him to this point even though they have been trying. It is not an easy thing to do.

 

[symbology]

The Kings were supposed to be all-in the last 4 years. Out of those years, this season season seems the be the farthest away from being a contender yet. The problem in coaching, and lack of vision by the management of the organization more than the roster.

Also Blake signed several legitimate additions in free agency. LA may not be signing tier 1 FAs (which are extremely rare to hit the market and less than 10% of teams seem to be able to do when they are available) but they can sign key additions and build a contender similar to 2012 / 2014 through trades and acquisitions if they have a solid vision. The lack of vision falls on Luc and Holland (though less so) and couple with AHL level coaching by Hiller - all of which need to go for the franchise to find success.

It is true, the Kings have been all in over the past 4 years, but they have had no assets and no cap space to do anything. Or, Blake has not had the guts to make any moves. At least this year I think they have all of their draft picks and some cap space. Maybe a new GM that will make changes if needed. I mean, last year they could not even throw out a 2nd rounder to pick up depth.

 

[hokiecat]

A top 10 scoring Center is in no way equivalent to a Top 10 scorer.

That wasn't the point. The point is you need a top scoring center to really have a chance at going deep in the playoffs. Kopi was defensively responsible but he was also top 10 in scoring during the Kings peak years.

I kind of agree with you, or want to agree with you. However, the Kings were owned by the Devils. The Devils lost to the Sharks 5-2 and are losing to the Ducks 4-1, (currently 1 minute left in the 3rd.)

I bring this up to attempt to get clarification on which 3 teams in the Pacific are going to stay in the Kings dust?

I think at best this is a wild card team. (unless they get their collective heads extracted from you know where).

The ones below us-- Sharks, Flames, and Canucks.

Unfortunately, we are an ugly team to watch. Tonight's ticket prices reflect that too. Lower bowl tickets were well under $100 this afternoon. I almost bought some but then decided that I'd rather just go to dinner and watch the game at home.