Panarin to Kings

[DryKing]

Correct that Luc is the public face of hiring and firing. I think Luc does decide on a GM or Coach, and others involved in the coaching/development side. But I also believe that AEG is the final decision. It’s why Luc has consistently referenced Beckerman over the years when discussing the operation.

I do also believe that once the hiring occurs Luc is very involved but allows those he hired to do what they do, whether that’s wise or not. I don’t think he’s telling Holland what moves to make or Hiller what lines to roll. Luc is the conduit to the real decision-makers. Holland has a deal, goes to Luc for the OK, they look at the contracts with the Cap Room, and Luc goes to Beckerman to sign off.

That’s the hierarchy that I see. Not that I don’t think Luc is responsible for any of it. Of course he’s culpable. I’m hardly in any position to want to be an apologist for him. But we also don’t know if there were moves he wanted that were not approved, or if any moves were dictated to him.

I think Luc is effectively in a role that is designed by AEG. It’s why I think his role with the team is not as hands-on as people might think.
It’s just my read on it.

Honestly I do not know either way, but I agree that it's unlikely Luc is hands on with every trade and decision. Ultimately he should be choosing the right people and putting them in roles to handle most of that, while focusing on larger Organizational strategies and implimentations.

I will note a few of personal observations, however.

1) AEG has built a stable of Champions in other sports. The LA Galaxy, for instance, has won the championship 2002, 2005, 2011, 2012, 2014, and 2024 (with 10 finals appearances). Eisbären Berlin (DEL) has won the title 10 DEL times, including wins in 2005, 2006, 2008, 2009, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2021, 2022, and 2024. Given the track record of other teams under the AEG umbrella, it's very hard to claim AEG is the problem (not saying you are, just process of elimination).

2) The Kings went south when Luc hired Bergevin as the advisor to the GM. All of a sudden, the Kings began chasing Bergevin's dream players which resulted in the whole PLD debacle and set the franchise backwards. This to me indicates that Luc either did not trust Blake, or ultimately had a different vision which he looked to enforce while not technically being hands on in doing so. Queue Bergevin.

3) All indications (at least publicly) was that Luc wanted Blake to stay, and Blake chose to step down. This again, leads me to believe there was a vision imbalance between the two. When Luc hired Holland, Bergevin was quickly cast aside and moved on (meaning Holland was not going to put up with the same treatment as Blake).

There is plenty of ownership for the shortcomings to go around, but I feel that ultimately it rests on Luc. Luc is trying to right the ship through Holland, and so far it looks relatively hopeful, but Luc, much like Hiller, never seem to take any ownership of the shortcomings of this team.

 

[DoubleMinor]

Honestly I do not know either way, but I agree that it's unlikely Luc is hands on with every trade and decision. Ultimately he should be choosing the right people and putting them in roles to handle most of that, while focusing on larger Organizational strategies and implimentations.

I will note a few of personal observations, however.

1) AEG has built a stable of Champions in other sports. The LA Galaxy, for instance, has won the championship 2002, 2005, 2011, 2012, 2014, and 2024 (with 10 finals appearances). Eisbären Berlin (DEL) has won the title 10 DEL times, including wins in 2005, 2006, 2008, 2009, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2021, 2022, and 2024. Given the track record of other teams under the AEG umbrella, it's very hard to claim AEG is the problem (not saying you are, just process of elimination).

2) The Kings went south when Luc hired Bergevin as the advisor to the GM. All of a sudden, the Kings began chasing Bergevin's dream players which resulted in the whole PLD debacle and set the franchise backwards. This to me indicates that Luc either did not trust Blake, or ultimately had a different vision which he looked to enforce while not technically being hands on in doing so. Queue Bergevin.

3) All indications (at least publicly) was that Luc wanted Blake to stay, and Blake chose to step down. This again, leads me to believe there was a vision imbalance between the two. When Luc hired Holland, Bergevin was quickly cast aside and moved on (meaning Holland was not going to put up with the same treatment as Blake).

There is plenty of ownership for the shortcomings to go around, but I feel that ultimately it rests on Luc. Luc is trying to right the ship through Holland, and so far it looks relatively hopeful, but Luc, much like Hiller, never seem to take any ownership of the shortcomings of this team.

I think your #2 point is very true. And your other points are well stated also

 

[Bollocks]

Honestly I do not know either way, but I agree that it's unlikely Luc is hands on with every trade and decision. Ultimately he should be choosing the right people and putting them in roles to handle most of that, while focusing on larger Organizational strategies and implimentations.

I will note a few of personal observations, however.

1) AEG has built a stable of Champions in other sports. The LA Galaxy, for instance, has won the championship 2002, 2005, 2011, 2012, 2014, and 2024 (with 10 finals appearances). Eisbären Berlin (DEL) has won the title 10 DEL times, including wins in 2005, 2006, 2008, 2009, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2021, 2022, and 2024. Given the track record of other teams under the AEG umbrella, it's very hard to claim AEG is the problem (not saying you are, just process of elimination).

2) The Kings went south when Luc hired Bergevin as the advisor to the GM. All of a sudden, the Kings began chasing Bergevin's dream players which resulted in the whole PLD debacle and set the franchise backwards. This to me indicates that Luc either did not trust Blake, or ultimately had a different vision which he looked to enforce while not technically being hands on in doing so. Queue Bergevin.

3) All indications (at least publicly) was that Luc wanted Blake to stay, and Blake chose to step down. This again, leads me to believe there was a vision imbalance between the two. When Luc hired Holland, Bergevin was quickly cast aside and moved on (meaning Holland was not going to put up with the same treatment as Blake).

There is plenty of ownership for the shortcomings to go around, but I feel that ultimately it rests on Luc. Luc is trying to right the ship through Holland, and so far it looks relatively hopeful, but Luc, much like Hiller, never seem to take any ownership of the shortcomings of this team.

I always was of the opinion that Rob was, as a rookie GM, thrown to the wolves with this LA Kings job.

Hired as an "old buddy" and hated already by most of the fanbase due to something he did 20 years ago, inheriting a severely underperforming and demotivated team coached by a lacklustre promoted interim coach and with dire prospect situation, and expectations were to be competitive. In comes Kovalchuk, Phaneuf...BAM, Blake's the bad guy already!

I fully believe Willie-D was a calculated hire in order to make the team suck bad enough so the higher-ups approved the retool.

Then comes Bergevin and most likely forces the biggest failure of Rob's career.

All along there was bad luck with Turcotte's injuries and Byfield being more of a project than everyone predicted him to be (and who also had bad luck with injuries), then Cal decided he didn't want to be an NHL goaltender anymore after getting his payday and so on...

And then the Oilers curse.

Yes, he made his share of blunders and bad judgement but he was a rookie GM expected to polish a turd, then rebuild said turd in 3 years all while being hated by almost entire fanbase for something he did 25 years ago and then for rookie mistakes he was almost supposed to make...

No wonder he gave up. I actually feel bad for him.

 

[DoubleMinor]

I always was of the opinion that Rob was, as a rookie GM, thrown to the wolves with this LA Kings job.

Hired as an "old buddy" and hated already by most of the fanbase due to something he did 20 years ago, inheriting a severely underperforming and demotivated team coached by a lacklustre promoted interim coach and with dire prospect situation, and expectations were to be competitive. In comes Kovalchuk, Phaneuf...BAM, Blake's the bad guy already!

I fully believe Willie-D was a calculated hire in order to make the team suck bad enough so the higher-ups approved the retool.

Then comes Bergevin and most likely forces the biggest failure of Rob's career.

All along there was bad luck with Turcotte's injuries and Byfield being more of a project than everyone predicted him to be (and who also had bad luck with injuries), then Cal decided he didn't want to be an NHL goaltender anymore after getting his payday and so on...

And then the Oilers curse.

Yes, he made his share of blunders and bad judgement but he was a rookie GM expected to polish a turd, then rebuild said turd in 3 years all while being hated by almost entire fanbase for something he did 25 years ago and then for rookie mistakes he was almost supposed to make...

No wonder he gave up. I actually feel bad for him.

This is very good. And I think very accurate.

One thing that sticks in my mind about the fact that Luc or the org seems to want to hire friends or ex-teammates is that the motivation is trying to continue the culture. But there isn’t really any culture that can be built on.

The Lombardi years were the only time in my recollection where there was anything that could be viewed as a culture. And it was a really impressive one. The thing that got Lombardi in trouble was his loyalty to those who were part of the culture. Once Dean was fired all that disappeared.

In terms of Luc hiring buddies, it’s a fair accusation. But like lots of people in high positions, they go with candidates they know and trust. It’s a story not of merit but of association. I understand it. You want people with character and integrity, you hire people who you know exhibit it. You hire people you can put trust in.

I think I wrote plenty of posts that were about Blake. And lots of people did not share my opinion. The comment about feeling some sympathy for his situation resonated with me. And particularly the comments going back to his playing days were correct. I think people still don’t really understand the conflicting dynamics that were part of Blake’s contract decisions.

Really good post.

 

[Halfwall]

This is very good. And I think very accurate.

One thing that sticks in my mind about the fact that Luc or the org seems to want to hire friends or ex-teammates is that the motivation is trying to continue the culture. But there isn’t really any culture that can be built on.

The Lombardi years were the only time in my recollection where there was anything that could be viewed as a culture. And it was a really impressive one. The thing that got Lombardi in trouble was his loyalty to those who were part of the culture. Once Dean was fired all that disappeared.

In terms of Luc hiring buddies, it’s a fair accusation. But like lots of people in high positions, they go with candidates they know and trust. It’s a story not of merit but of association. I understand it. You want people with character and integrity, you hire people who you know exhibit it. You hire people you can put trust in.

I think I wrote plenty of posts that were about Blake. And lots of people did not share my opinion. The comment about feeling some sympathy for his situation resonated with me. And particularly the comments going back to his playing days were correct. I think people still don’t really understand the conflicting dynamics that were part of Blake’s contract decisions.

Really good post.

Folks, it's a 32 team league--that's a classroom. Everybody knows everybody else. Where else do you go for culture, Jamaica?

 

[dannybuoy1]

In comes Kovalchuk, Phaneuf...BAM, Blake's the bad guy already!

Throw in giving Petersen the extension.

Goes back to what I have always said, the fans should not know better in the moves a GM makes.

 

[DoubleMinor]

Folks, it's a 32 team league--that's a classroom. Everybody knows everybody else. Where else do you go for culture, Jamaica?

True. But knowing someone you have faith in matters and that’s what this Kings org has prioritized.
Luc hired Holland because he believed in him and thought he was the right guy to manage this roster. Whether that was a good or bad hire will be decided over the course.

 

[DoubleMinor]

Folks, it's a 32 team league--that's a classroom. Everybody knows everybody else. Where else do you go for culture, Jamaica?

This is actually quite good. Well said.

 

[Bollocks]

This is very good. And I think very accurate.

One thing that sticks in my mind about the fact that Luc or the org seems to want to hire friends or ex-teammates is that the motivation is trying to continue the culture. But there isn’t really any culture that can be built on.

The Lombardi years were the only time in my recollection where there was anything that could be viewed as a culture. And it was a really impressive one. The thing that got Lombardi in trouble was his loyalty to those who were part of the culture. Once Dean was fired all that disappeared.

In terms of Luc hiring buddies, it’s a fair accusation. But like lots of people in high positions, they go with candidates they know and trust. It’s a story not of merit but of association. I understand it. You want people with character and integrity, you hire people who you know exhibit it. You hire people you can put trust in.

I think I wrote plenty of posts that were about Blake. And lots of people did not share my opinion. The comment about feeling some sympathy for his situation resonated with me. And particularly the comments going back to his playing days were correct. I think people still don’t really understand the conflicting dynamics that were part of Blake’s contract decisions.

Really good post.

One thing is to trust someone you know with extensive GM pedigree and at least some track record of success (like Ken). Another thing is trust someone you know whose only experience was being an assistant manager for 3 years, during which his mentor has already lost his plot a bit...

Remember we were all rooting for Hextall to become the GM? Here's a wikipedia quote from The Athletic about his stint in Pittsburgh:
"one of the worst general managers in franchise history. He may well have destroyed the Penguins with his ghastly record of player transactions."

We were rooting for Futa to be the next GM...it would be a gamble, like it usually is with rookie GM. Hell, even Ken was a gamble, despite his past success.

Fact is though (kind of in defense of Luc) - really good GMs that seldomly make a mistake and who are known to build Cup winning teams...usually aren't available when you need them the most.

Just trying to drive my point about Rob not being THE bad guy in all this even further...I swear some fans acted like he's doing bad stuff on purpose just to screw LA fans even more.

Throw in giving Petersen the extension.

Goes back to what I have always said, the fans should not know better in the moves a GM makes.

Petersen extension came quite a few years after Kovy and Phaneuf, and I did mention it. I actually consider it the most obvious rookie mistake of Rob, if we presume the PLD fiasco was orchestrated/forced mainly by Bergevin.

 

[ICE24]

Until this organization goes through a complete rebuild like the Sharks and Ducks, they will be floundering in the middle of the pack for many seasons. That kid from SJ is going to wreak havoc on this pacific division for many, many seasons.

 

[Bollocks]

Until this organization goes through a complete rebuild like the Sharks and Ducks, they will be floundering in the middle of the pack for many seasons. That kid from SJ is going to wreak havoc on this pacific division for many, many seasons.

But we all know that until Ken's contract runs out, that's not going to happen (rebuild). So...might as well embrace it and hope for the best. Let's hope Ken somehow improves the team without giving up too much. He started well with Panarin, but he got lucky. The timing seems right for Elias, maybe he gets lucky there, too.

Then in the offseason he'll have to sort the defense. That's going to be a tougher nut to crack...especially with those two expensive pylons on the 3rd pairing.

 

[Jran]

Better gets some depends.
Hillers a bartender with a blender that gets put on overdrive.
Turcotte's injured , Laffy is new to C.

We will get a c...Bambi is not it...

 

[Jran]

Depending on the site he is listed as winning anywhere between 42.4% to 44.9% of face-offs so far this season.

As to worth, this is what AI has to say in regards to what AAV he could expect were he to sign as a free agent today:

Based on his 2023-24 breakout season and his actual July 2024 contract extension, a realistic Average Annual Value (AAV) for Quinton Byfield as a free agent would be in the
$6.25 million to $7.5 million range, depending on the term.
Here is the breakdown of his market value based on his recent contract and performance:

• Actual Contract (July 2024): The Los Angeles Kings signed Byfield to a 5-year, $31.25 million contract extension ($6.25M AAV). This was considered a high-value, potential "steal" contract by analysts because it locks up a 20-goal, 55-point scorer (as of 2023-24) who was transitioning into a top-six center role.
• Market Value (If UFA/Long-Term): If Byfield were a free agent rather than an RFA, his value would be higher, likely in the $7M+ range. A full 8-year maximum contract would likely have commanded an AAV closer to $7.5M–$8M, but the 5-year term allowed for a lower AAV while allowing him to cash in again at age 26.
• Performance Metrics: Byfield’s 2023-24 season saw him record 20 goals and 55 points in 80 games. His efficiency, including being a 6-foot-5 power forward with strong play-driving numbers, makes him worth a premium.
• Comparison: The $6.25M AAV represents roughly 7.1% of the 2024-25 salary cap, a rate that is expected to look very team-friendly as the cap continues to rise and his production increases.

If he hits free agency today, his elite skill set, size, and age (22) would put him firmly in the $7M+ AAV category for a long-term contrac

Depending on the site he is listed as winning anywhere between 42.4% to 44.9% of face-offs so far this season.

As to worth, this is what AI has to say in regards to what AAV he could expect were he to sign as a free agent today:

Based on his 2023-24 breakout season and his actual July 2024 contract extension, a realistic Average Annual Value (AAV) for Quinton Byfield as a free agent would be in the
$6.25 million to $7.5 million range, depending on the term.
Here is the breakdown of his market value based on his recent contract and performance:

• Actual Contract (July 2024): The Los Angeles Kings signed Byfield to a 5-year, $31.25 million contract extension ($6.25M AAV). This was considered a high-value, potential "steal" contract by analysts because it locks up a 20-goal, 55-point scorer (as of 2023-24) who was transitioning into a top-six center role.
• Market Value (If UFA/Long-Term): If Byfield were a free agent rather than an RFA, his value would be higher, likely in the $7M+ range. A full 8-year maximum contract would likely have commanded an AAV closer to $7.5M–$8M, but the 5-year term allowed for a lower AAV while allowing him to cash in again at age 26.
• Performance Metrics: Byfield’s 2023-24 season saw him record 20 goals and 55 points in 80 games. His efficiency, including being a 6-foot-5 power forward with strong play-driving numbers, makes him worth a premium.
• Comparison: The $6.25M AAV represents roughly 7.1% of the 2024-25 salary cap, a rate that is expected to look very team-friendly as the cap continues to rise and his production increases.

If he hits free agency today, his elite skill set, size, and age (22) would put him firmly in the $7M+ AAV category for a long-term contract.

Great...if he is so valuable let some other team pay him....1 more sub par year we will be lucky to get a late 2nd for him..disaster..he skates like Bambi

 

[Jran]

Do you remember what kind of development curve Kopitar had until about the age of where QB is now?

He was a one-dimensional offensive-minded player who was given top line hockey time right from the get-go, playing his natural position, without much responsibilities other than to get the fans hyped up with his skill. No prior injury woes and he has previously played in the best hockey league outside NHL among pros.

It was only in his 5th full NHL season when he became a Selke candidate and a complete player that then helped lead the Kings to a Cup. His first season under Terry Murray he saw a significant drop in production without that much to show for on the defensive end. He did have a stronger faceoff foundation being just below 50% to start his NHL career, but he improved that first by 4 perc. points between ages 23 and 24 (in what I assume was a heavy summer work on that aspect) and then by another 2-3 perc. point between ages 29 and 32/33.


Sure, Byfield doesn't have elite hockey IQ of Kopitar and most likely never will, and his faceoffs are often a mess, but sometimes they're great, and sometimes Byfield playes great, too, and is productive.

He has the tools to succeed, but those tools need proper polishing and guidance, and also stable environment and a chance to build both confidence and consistency.


His path up to where he is now was FAR more rocky (junior to AHL to NHL instead of SHL to NHL; very nasty early career injuries) and he endured FAR more pressure to succeed (the team was expected to be a playoff team when he entered the league for his first full season, and by his third full season he was already tasked with defensive duties on the best player on the planet).

There is still hope, but of course the front office needs to lay down the foundation for this hope to be fruitful. If Ken assembles a dysfunctional environment and an ill-fitted coach it can't all be the player's fault, can it?

Sure, Byfield doesn't have elite hockey IQ of Kopitar and most likely never will, and his faceoffs are often a mess.
You said it and with this I agree..

 

[DryKing]

Great...if he is so valuable let some other team pay him....1 more sub par year we will be lucky to get a late 2nd for him..disaster..he skates like Bambi

I hope you are being overly sarcastic here.

 

[symbology]

I have been thinking about this over the last few days. Why does Gavy hate Breadboy so much? Why would he convince him to come to LA?