Panarin to Kings

[DarkLeftHand]

It’s not about complete tax avoidance. It’s mitigation. It’s about making the taxable income as small as possible.

The lump sum signing bonus can’t include his full annual salary. The CBA forces a player to take a base league minimum salary so that minimum will still be subject to local and federal taxes.

Panarin has a base salary of 1M and a signing bonus of 11M in year one. 1M and 9M in year two. Total salary 22M or AAV of 11M.

With the confirmation that Panarin’s home is in Florida, signing in LA makes a lot more sense. At 500K (half his games in LA) he’ll be paying about 10% more in state/local tax than if he signed in Vegas/Dallas/Florida.

Ok so not complete avoidance but the point is, he’s only -state- taxed on the salary portion, which is 500k in Cali and another 500k dispersed amongst the away game sites. So the 11 mill signing bonus portion he gets paid would be done in accordance to his ‘home’ location.. which is Florida. And thus, he evades state income tax on that 11 mill, right? Which is basically what I was saying.. so it’s not about complete avoidance, but it sure as $hit works out way better for him than the majority of us who are paying California state taxes on 100% of our earnings.

 

[DoubleMinor]

While my contact was part of the group I never posted anything that could potentially sound like insider info. Only after Lombardi and my friend were long gone did I make use of any info I had been privileged to know.

Very commendable on your part to respect that friendship. And I did not think otherwise. You were very clear about that.

I went into a bit more only to note how difficult that situation would be.
You know something from someone who is in the room and knows what is going on.
You read things on message boards that are not correct.
Because of what you know you would like to provide real and valuable information to help people understand.
But you can’t.

I would imagine you ran into that situation. You couldn’t blow up that relationship. But it had to get frustrating to see people embrace ideas that were not true, based on your source.

One thing about the Lombardi era that always struck me was how the moves he made always seemed to come out of nowhere. A lot of that group played it close to the vest.

 

[Jran]

100% disagree and support Byf.
This year is mulligan.
Lets see what he can do with a new coach next season.
He is playing at his floor and is a very good defensive center that earns what Danault did or less when you factor in inflation the last 3 years.
Byfields ceiling hasn't changed and he can try out in on line 1 c with Pan.

last year...the year before and since he started we're all mulligans...the difference this year is the price tag...he should make no where north of 4 and play bottom 6...anything else at this ti.e is a pipe dream..development years are over..he is a bust..and will be forgotten like all of our other poor performing draft picks...I will sh*t the bed if he is anywhere near pan. He is one of the only players I notice that when the goal is scored he is nowhere on the sheet..at best he will be a 3c or 2w but to dream he will be a 1c.. centering pan...is unholy

 

[Jran]

Yep - 82 points in 45 games (OHL) the season before being drafted. What were the Kings thinking?

Byfield is neither a failed experiment or a player who should be traded. What he should be is given an opportunity to play with our top forwards (Kempe and now Panarin) and, therein, be given a chance to succeed.

Remember when Steve Rucchin was drafted 2nd overall in the '94 supplementary draft specifically to center the line of Kariya and Selanne? He had a good career (keeping in mind his numbers were inflated by centering two superstars), and was a vital part of their team, but never lived up to fans expectations as he "was taken 2nd overall".

Yeah and no player ever...did well in the ohl to come up to nhl and fail..I'd love to keep him at 3.5 million. Not at his current contract..this was a brige to what 11 mil? He can't win a face off and he has no puck control for a c..byf will never live up to Jim fox hype...he has had many chances to succeed but he sux...at current cap..

 

[Jran]

Yep - 82 points in 45 games (OHL) the season before being drafted. What were the Kings thinking?

Byfield is neither a failed experiment or a player who should be traded. What he should be is given an opportunity to play with our top forwards (Kempe and now Panarin) and, therein, be given a chance to succeed.

Remember when Steve Rucchin was drafted 2nd overall in the '94 supplementary draft specifically to center the line of Kariya and Selanne? He had a good career (keeping in mind his numbers were inflated by centering two superstars), and was a vital part of their team, but never lived up to fans expectations as he "was taken 2nd overall".

All I see is the same Homer's to your post...byfield has had all the room to grow...he just isn't worth the money and we will suck if he slots 1c...at 3.5 3rd line if he learns to win faceoffs...he is worth it...but he has had years to grow and is abysmal.

 

[DryKing]

All I see is the same Homer's to your post...byfield has had all the room to grow...he just isn't worth the money and we will suck if he slots 1c...at 3.5 3rd line if he learns to win faceoffs...he is worth it...but he has had years to grow and is abysmal.

Depending on the site he is listed as winning anywhere between 42.4% to 44.9% of face-offs so far this season.

As to worth, this is what AI has to say in regards to what AAV he could expect were he to sign as a free agent today:

Based on his 2023-24 breakout season and his actual July 2024 contract extension, a realistic Average Annual Value (AAV) for Quinton Byfield as a free agent would be in the
$6.25 million to $7.5 million range, depending on the term.
Here is the breakdown of his market value based on his recent contract and performance:

• Actual Contract (July 2024): The Los Angeles Kings signed Byfield to a 5-year, $31.25 million contract extension ($6.25M AAV). This was considered a high-value, potential "steal" contract by analysts because it locks up a 20-goal, 55-point scorer (as of 2023-24) who was transitioning into a top-six center role.
• Market Value (If UFA/Long-Term): If Byfield were a free agent rather than an RFA, his value would be higher, likely in the $7M+ range. A full 8-year maximum contract would likely have commanded an AAV closer to $7.5M–$8M, but the 5-year term allowed for a lower AAV while allowing him to cash in again at age 26.
• Performance Metrics: Byfield’s 2023-24 season saw him record 20 goals and 55 points in 80 games. His efficiency, including being a 6-foot-5 power forward with strong play-driving numbers, makes him worth a premium.
• Comparison: The $6.25M AAV represents roughly 7.1% of the 2024-25 salary cap, a rate that is expected to look very team-friendly as the cap continues to rise and his production increases.

If he hits free agency today, his elite skill set, size, and age (22) would put him firmly in the $7M+ AAV category for a long-term contract.

 

[VCRW]

The AI quoted above doesn’t seem to know that Byfield is now actually 23.

 

[DoubleMinor]

Depending on the site he is listed as winning anywhere between 42.4% to 44.9% of face-offs so far this season.

As to worth, this is what AI has to say in regards to what AAV he could expect were he to sign as a free agent today:

Based on his 2023-24 breakout season and his actual July 2024 contract extension, a realistic Average Annual Value (AAV) for Quinton Byfield as a free agent would be in the
$6.25 million to $7.5 million range, depending on the term.
Here is the breakdown of his market value based on his recent contract and performance:

• Actual Contract (July 2024): The Los Angeles Kings signed Byfield to a 5-year, $31.25 million contract extension ($6.25M AAV). This was considered a high-value, potential "steal" contract by analysts because it locks up a 20-goal, 55-point scorer (as of 2023-24) who was transitioning into a top-six center role.
• Market Value (If UFA/Long-Term): If Byfield were a free agent rather than an RFA, his value would be higher, likely in the $7M+ range. A full 8-year maximum contract would likely have commanded an AAV closer to $7.5M–$8M, but the 5-year term allowed for a lower AAV while allowing him to cash in again at age 26.
• Performance Metrics: Byfield’s 2023-24 season saw him record 20 goals and 55 points in 80 games. His efficiency, including being a 6-foot-5 power forward with strong play-driving numbers, makes him worth a premium.
• Comparison: The $6.25M AAV represents roughly 7.1% of the 2024-25 salary cap, a rate that is expected to look very team-friendly as the cap continues to rise and his production increases.

If he hits free agency today, his elite skill set, size, and age (22) would put him firmly in the $7M+ AAV category for a long-term contract.

Kempe took awhile to blossom and Byfield is too. Byfield is not your typical hockey player body, and has been moved around with position and role. Plus the health was a factor for a couple years. He will get there. And he’s already a darn good defensive center.

 

[VCRW]

Kempe took awhile to blossom and Byfield is too. Byfield is not your typical hockey player body, and has been moved around with position and role. Plus the health was a factor for a couple years. He will get there. And he’s already a darn good defensive center.

Tage Thompson might be a better comparable.

 

[Bollocks]

All I see is the same Homer's to your post...byfield has had all the room to grow...he just isn't worth the money and we will suck if he slots 1c...at 3.5 3rd line if he learns to win faceoffs...he is worth it...but he has had years to grow and is abysmal.

Do you remember what kind of development curve Kopitar had until about the age of where QB is now?

He was a one-dimensional offensive-minded player who was given top line hockey time right from the get-go, playing his natural position, without much responsibilities other than to get the fans hyped up with his skill. No prior injury woes and he has previously played in the best hockey league outside NHL among pros.

It was only in his 5th full NHL season when he became a Selke candidate and a complete player that then helped lead the Kings to a Cup. His first season under Terry Murray he saw a significant drop in production without that much to show for on the defensive end. He did have a stronger faceoff foundation being just below 50% to start his NHL career, but he improved that first by 4 perc. points between ages 23 and 24 (in what I assume was a heavy summer work on that aspect) and then by another 2-3 perc. point between ages 29 and 32/33.


Sure, Byfield doesn't have elite hockey IQ of Kopitar and most likely never will, and his faceoffs are often a mess, but sometimes they're great, and sometimes Byfield playes great, too, and is productive.

He has the tools to succeed, but those tools need proper polishing and guidance, and also stable environment and a chance to build both confidence and consistency.


His path up to where he is now was FAR more rocky (junior to AHL to NHL instead of SHL to NHL; very nasty early career injuries) and he endured FAR more pressure to succeed (the team was expected to be a playoff team when he entered the league for his first full season, and by his third full season he was already tasked with defensive duties on the best player on the planet).

There is still hope, but of course the front office needs to lay down the foundation for this hope to be fruitful. If Ken assembles a dysfunctional environment and an ill-fitted coach it can't all be the player's fault, can it?

 

[Axl Rhoadz]

Do you remember what kind of development curve Kopitar had until about the age of where QB is now?

He was a one-dimensional offensive-minded player who was given top line hockey time right from the get-go, playing his natural position, without much responsibilities other than to get the fans hyped up with his skill. No prior injury woes and he has previously played in the best hockey league outside NHL among pros.

It was only in his 5th full NHL season when he became a Selke candidate and a complete player that then helped lead the Kings to a Cup. His first season under Terry Murray he saw a significant drop in production without that much to show for on the defensive end. He did have a stronger faceoff foundation being just below 50% to start his NHL career, but he improved that first by 4 perc. points between ages 23 and 24 (in what I assume was a heavy summer work on that aspect) and then by another 2-3 perc. point between ages 29 and 32/33.


Sure, Byfield doesn't have elite hockey IQ of Kopitar and most likely never will, and his faceoffs are often a mess, but sometimes they're great, and sometimes Byfield playes great, too, and is productive.

He has the tools to succeed, but those tools need proper polishing and guidance, and also stable environment and a chance to build both confidence and consistency.


His path up to where he is now was FAR more rocky (junior to AHL to NHL instead of SHL to NHL; very nasty early career injuries) and he endured FAR more pressure to succeed (the team was expected to be a playoff team when he entered the league for his first full season, and by his third full season he was already tasked with defensive duties on the best player on the planet).

There is still hope, but of course the front office needs to lay down the foundation for this hope to be fruitful. If Ken assembles a dysfunctional environment and an ill-fitted coach it can't all be the player's fault, can it?

Whoa….easy on the Kopitar comparison. Kopi had 300+ points in his first 5 seasons, Byfield doesn’t have half of that.

 

[ICE24]

We are spending too much time on what ifs. Let's just enjoy the rest of the regular season and in April, I will give LGK my expert advice on how to make this team into a playoff wrecking machine.

 

[Statue4Deano]

Ok so not complete avoidance but the point is, he’s only -state- taxed on the salary portion, which is 500k in Cali and another 500k dispersed amongst the away game sites. So the 11 mill signing bonus portion he gets paid would be done in accordance to his ‘home’ location.. which is Florida. And thus, he evades state income tax on that 11 mill, right? Which is basically what I was saying.. so it’s not about complete avoidance, but it sure as $hit works out way better for him than the majority of us who are paying California state taxes on 100% of our earnings.

All correct.

My larger point is that LA taxes are used as a convenient excuse whenever the Kings miss out on a big name player. Panarin just proved that if a player wants to be here he’ll sign here.

 

[What party?]

All correct.

My larger point is that LA taxes are used as a convenient excuse whenever the Kings miss out on a big name player. Panarin just proved that if a player wants to be here he’ll sign here, to his peril.

Fixed that for you.

 

[ICE24]

All correct.

My larger point is that LA taxes are used as a convenient excuse whenever the Kings miss out on a big name player. Panarin just proved that if a player wants to be here he’ll sign here.

I wonder if there is an underlying reason for the signage. Someone mentioned his wife being a fashion model. LA is not a bad place to be in for someone like her.

 

[DryKing]

I wonder if there is an underlying reason for the signage. Someone mentioned his wife being a fashion model. LA is not a bad place to be in for someone like her.

Part of it is likely that. Additionally the Kings/Holland are selling an all out win now vision which is likely appealing to a player in the back end of his career.

 

[The Nuts]

Lombardi emphasized culture and it showed.

This is true but this team , go a recommended to Pan from Gav, who is a real locker room guy.

 

[The Nuts]

I get it, I am just looking at the teams like the Ducks, Redwings and throw in SJ and Chicago as they are a year or two away. Pittsburgh is the exception as they have not done the full rebuild and are successful. So far LA is one of the playoff teams that have failed on the quicker rebuild, as they are worse than last season.

Well I never commented om the success rate.
However, new Gm , gonna do some thing to build his team and yes so far it has cost us some points.
Mainly points to less Gav and more DD among other variables

 

[The Nuts]

last year...the year before and since he started we're all mulligans...the difference this year is the price tag...he should make no where north of 4 and play bottom 6...anything else at this ti.e is a pipe dream..development years are over..he is a bust..and will be forgotten like all of our other poor performing draft picks...I will sh*t the bed if he is anywhere near pan. He is one of the only players I notice that when the goal is scored he is nowhere on the sheet..at best he will be a 3c or 2w but to dream he will be a 1c.. centering pan...is unholy

Better gets some depends.
Hillers a bartender with a blender that gets put on overdrive.
Turcotte's injured , Laffy is new to C.

 

[Johnnysuede71]

Do you remember what kind of development curve Kopitar had until about the age of where QB is now?

He was a one-dimensional offensive-minded player who was given top line hockey time right from the get-go, playing his natural position, without much responsibilities other than to get the fans hyped up with his skill. No prior injury woes and he has previously played in the best hockey league outside NHL among pros.

It was only in his 5th full NHL season when he became a Selke candidate and a complete player that then helped lead the Kings to a Cup. His first season under Terry Murray he saw a significant drop in production without that much to show for on the defensive end. He did have a stronger faceoff foundation being just below 50% to start his NHL career, but he improved that first by 4 perc. points between ages 23 and 24 (in what I assume was a heavy summer work on that aspect) and then by another 2-3 perc. point between ages 29 and 32/33.


Sure, Byfield doesn't have elite hockey IQ of Kopitar and most likely never will, and his faceoffs are often a mess, but sometimes they're great, and sometimes Byfield playes great, too, and is productive.

He has the tools to succeed, but those tools need proper polishing and guidance, and also stable environment and a chance to build both confidence and consistency.


His path up to where he is now was FAR more rocky (junior to AHL to NHL instead of SHL to NHL; very nasty early career injuries) and he endured FAR more pressure to succeed (the team was expected to be a playoff team when he entered the league for his first full season, and by his third full season he was already tasked with defensive duties on the best player on the planet).

There is still hope, but of course the front office needs to lay down the foundation for this hope to be fruitful. If Ken assembles a dysfunctional environment and an ill-fitted coach it can't all be the player's fault, can it?

Not sure I'm buying this comparison with all due respect. Kopitar had 4 70 plus point campaigns in his first 5 seasons and wasn't nearly the skater Byfield is. IMHO...QB's problem is between his ears.