Panarin to Kings

[dneprovec]

Bailey sold his 72 number to Panarin

 

[Bollocks]

Not sure I'm buying this comparison with all due respect. Kopitar had 4 70 plus point campaigns in his first 5 seasons and wasn't nearly the skater Byfield is. IMHO...QB's problem is between his ears.

And @Axl Rhoadz

Whoa….easy on the Kopitar comparison. Kopi had 300+ points in his first 5 seasons, Byfield doesn’t have half of that.

You both didn't understand what I was trying to say.

Kopitar had a quite glaring flaw in his game, no matter the offensive production, and it took him 4 years with better foundation and less pressure and adversity to work on them to the point of actually becoming a complete player. And a different coach.

With Kopitar the problem was defense. With Byfield the problem is offense, faceoffs, decision making and consistency. First depends on playing system and confidence a lot, the rest mostly depends on experience and mileage. And all of it depends on suitable approach to development and player utilization.

He will almost 100% never reach Kopitar's level and I wasn't trying to say he will. I was trying to say he's far from the top of his development curve and the Kings absolutely would be selling very low if they trade him before giving him a chance to succeed with a summer of training with top linemates and a different coach. And trading him low would be very bad asset management.

I'd only consider it if there is a team that's willing to send us a proven veteran #1 center with at least 8 years left in his tank (to match up with Kempe's timelin) and is signed to a long-term deal (or in a sign&trade) with very minimal asset additions on the Kings' part. But I doubt there's a team like that out there at the moment.

Sometimes I get the impression some of the LGKers would be willing to trade him for a bag of pucks just so they don't havr to be frustrated with him anymore. Sucks to be so pessimistic and impatient, I must say...

 

[emsomaso]

And @Axl Rhoadz



You both didn't understand what I was trying to say.

Kopitar had a quite glaring flaw in his game, no matter the offensive production, and it took him 4 years with better foundation and less pressure and adversity to work on them to the point of actually becoming a complete player. And a different coach.

With Kopitar the problem was defense. With Byfield the problem is offense, faceoffs, decision making and consistency. First depends on playing system and confidence a lot, the rest mostly depends on experience and mileage. And all of it depends on suitable approach to development and player utilization.

He will almost 100% never reach Kopitar's level and I wasn't trying to say he will. I was trying to say he's far from the top of his development curve and the Kings absolutely would be selling very low if they trade him before giving him a chance to succeed with a summer of training with top linemates and a different coach. And trading him low would be very bad asset management.

I'd only consider it if there is a team that's willing to send us a proven veteran #1 center with at least 8 years left in his tank (to match up with Kempe's timelin) and is signed to a long-term deal (or in a sign&trade) with very minimal asset additions on the Kings' part. But I doubt there's a team like that out there at the moment.

Sometimes I get the impression some of the LGKers would be willing to trade him for a bag of pucks just so they don't havr to be frustrated with him anymore. Sucks to be so pessimistic and impatient, I must say...

Agree! To me it gets a bit contradictory when people that critisizes Kings management for waisting our assets sometimes are the same people that seems to basically want to give QB away just to get rid of him...

 

[Pevsfreedom]

Sometimes I get the impression some of the LGKers would be willing to trade him for a bag of pucks just so they don't havr to be frustrated with him anymore. Sucks to be so pessimistic and impatient, I must say...

You really think we could get a whole bag of pucks for him?

 

[Bollocks]

You really think we could get a whole bag of pucks for him?

Used pucks, maybe!

 

[Johnnysuede71]

And @Axl Rhoadz



You both didn't understand what I was trying to say.

Kopitar had a quite glaring flaw in his game, no matter the offensive production, and it took him 4 years with better foundation and less pressure and adversity to work on them to the point of actually becoming a complete player. And a different coach.

With Kopitar the problem was defense. With Byfield the problem is offense, faceoffs, decision making and consistency. First depends on playing system and confidence a lot, the rest mostly depends on experience and mileage. And all of it depends on suitable approach to development and player utilization.

He will almost 100% never reach Kopitar's level and I wasn't trying to say he will. I was trying to say he's far from the top of his development curve and the Kings absolutely would be selling very low if they trade him before giving him a chance to succeed with a summer of training with top linemates and a different coach. And trading him low would be very bad asset management.

I'd only consider it if there is a team that's willing to send us a proven veteran #1 center with at least 8 years left in his tank (to match up with Kempe's timelin) and is signed to a long-term deal (or in a sign&trade) with very minimal asset additions on the Kings' part. But I doubt there's a team like that out there at the moment.

Sometimes I get the impression some of the LGKers would be willing to trade him for a bag of pucks just so they don't havr to be frustrated with him anymore. Sucks to be so pessimistic and impatient, I must say...

I think MY point was that if I am correct and Byfield's issues and emergence as a top line player have nothing to do with his skill set...then I think we will be waiting around a long time for him to 'develop'. You can't teach instinct...aggression...edge...and a nose for the net. As for the defensive side of the game...QB currently has 8 more points than Kopitar but is a -6 to Kopi's +12. Just saying. QB is not a top line center. The End.

 

[JC6388LAKings]

Agree! To me it gets a bit contradictory when people that critisizes Kings management for waisting our assets sometimes are the same people that seems to basically want to give QB away just to get rid of him...

While I'm definitely with the crowd that criticizes the Kings' FO and Luc (and rightly so), at least I'm not part of the crowd that wants QB gone for a bag of pucks. Some people here have way too much expectations of what defines a complete player. Not every player here in the Kings is going to be Gretzky, M.Lemieux, Yzerman, McDavid, Bergeron, Crosby, or even Modano.

 

[DryKing]

I think MY point was that if I am correct and Byfield's issues and emergence as a top line player have nothing to do with his skill set...then I think we will be waiting around a long time for him to 'develop'. You can't teach instinct...aggression...edge...and a nose for the net. As for the defensive side of the game...QB currently has 8 more points than Kopitar but is a -6 to Kopi's +12. Just saying. QB is not a top line center. The End.

Speaking of QB and Kopi - which center, between those two, has played regularly against the opposing team's top line this season? Additionally, which of those two centers has routinely played with the Kings top winder (Kempe)?

Quality of opponent matters as much as quality of linemates do. It's cool to cherry pick a stat like +/- but QB remains a career +36 while Stutzle, for instance, remains a career -59.

I do agree with you with you that Byfield has not yet established himself as a top line center, however he is being utilized as a shutdown center vs what is typically a team's top line, scoring, center (even though he leads Kings centers in points). Despite that, QB has the 2nd most game winning goals this season, only behind Kempe (multiple of whose goals he assisted on).

Also mental game and awareness do increase as a player matures in the league. Some of that comes from confidence, some from experience, but QB will grow.

 

[symbology]

Speaking of QB and Kopi - which center, between those two, has played regularly against the opposing team's top line this season? Additionally, which of those two centers has routinely played with the Kings top winder (Kempe)?

Quality of opponent matters as much as quality of linemates do. It's cool to cherry pick a stat like +/- but QB remains a career +36 while Stutzle, for instance, remains a career -59.

I do agree with you with you that Byfield has not yet established himself as a top line center, however he is being utilized as a shutdown center vs what is typically a team's top line, scoring, center (even though he leads Kings centers in points). Despite that, QB has the 2nd most game winning goals this season, only behind Kempe (multiple of whose goals he assisted on).

Also mental game and awareness do increase as a player matures in the league. Some of that comes from confidence, some from experience, but QB will grow.

I was going to chime in on this discussion the other day, but was to busy..... Anyway, this post reminds me of one of the stats I was going to bring up. If we are so concerned with +/- Through the first 5 years of their careers, Kopi was a whopping -13 (if memory serves me correctly, while QB is sitting at a +36. At the time it must have meant that Kopi was not first line material and should have been traded.

 

[Johnnysuede71]

I was going to chime in on this discussion the other day, but was to busy..... Anyway, this post reminds me of one of the stats I was going to bring up. If we are so concerned with +/- Through the first 5 years of their careers, Kopi was a whopping -13 (if memory serves me correctly, while QB is sitting at a +36. At the time it must have meant that Kopi was not first line material and should have been traded.

It's easier to evolve into a 1st line center if you come out of the gate scoring and develop your defensive game later. Are trying to imply that regardless of plus/minus you would be perfectly content with 40-50 points a year from your 1C?? Please. And btw...I never said trade him...I said 'Byfield is not a top line center'...which is the position I think we can all agree he is/was being groomed for especially as the number 2 pick.

 

[hokiecat]

I think MY point was that if I am correct and Byfield's issues and emergence as a top line player have nothing to do with his skill set...then I think we will be waiting around a long time for him to 'develop'. You can't teach instinct...aggression...edge...and a nose for the net. As for the defensive side of the game...QB currently has 8 more points than Kopitar but is a -6 to Kopi's +12. Just saying. QB is not a top line center. The End.

^^^This.

I don't think there is enough development runway for QB to become a 1C. So where does that leave us? With a 2C who has great skills in his toolbox but can't put them together to be elite.

I'd say trade him now if some team is buying the potential. Because I don't see him adequately filling the 1C role in the future. Hoping for him to be a late bloomer like Thompson or Kempe seems like a crummy plan.

 

[hokiecat]

I was going to chime in on this discussion the other day, but was to busy..... Anyway, this post reminds me of one of the stats I was going to bring up. If we are so concerned with +/- Through the first 5 years of their careers, Kopi was a whopping -13 (if memory serves me correctly, while QB is sitting at a +36. At the time it must have meant that Kopi was not first line material and should have been traded.

Yep, please continue to cherry pick one stat and use that as evidence that QB is somehow better than Kopi. Haha.

It's easier to evolve into a 1st line center if you come out of the gate scoring and develop your defensive game later. Are trying to imply that regardless of plus/minus you would be perfectly content with 40-50 points a year from your 1C?? Please. And btw...I never said trade him...I said 'Byfield is not a top line center'...which is the position I think we can all agree he is/was being groomed for especially as the number 2 pick.

And this^^^. It isn't that Byfield sucks. It is just that he isn't playing like you'd want/hope a #2 overall plays. Why is that so difficult for people here to understand? Fun fact, 2018 Caps had 14 first round picks on the team. What is the point of that? first rounders usually end up being solid NHL players but not all are top line guys. The 4C was Brett Connolly who was a #6 overall. He never became the player he was hoped to be but played over 500 NHL games.

Why is it so hard to conclude that Byfield isn't going to pan out as a 1C? So the Kings need to make appropriate plans for the roster like trading for one?

While I'm definitely with the crowd that criticizes the Kings' FO and Luc (and rightly so), at least I'm not part of the crowd that wants QB gone for a bag of pucks. Some people here have way too much expectations of what defines a complete player. Not every player here in the Kings is going to be Gretzky, M.Lemieux, Yzerman, McDavid, Bergeron, Crosby, or even Modano.

Which crowd is the bag of pucks crowd? Do you have proof of people saying that or are you just making a strawman argument? My guess is its the latter.

 

[DarkLeftHand]

All correct.

My larger point is that LA taxes are used as a convenient excuse whenever the Kings miss out on a big name player. Panarin just proved that if a player wants to be here he’ll sign here.

I got ya. I was only commenting in response to the previous query above about why these large signing bonuses are used, but was also slightly unsure myself.

All correct.

My larger point is that LA taxes are used as a convenient excuse whenever the Kings miss out on a big name player. Panarin just proved that if a player wants to be here he’ll sign here.

i got ya. My original post was somewhat of a comment/question, as I was also not completely clear on the mechanics of these signing bonus structure deals. Someone else made a good point about it making a player slightly more appealing for trade in the final contract year also, since actual dollars paid would be very minimal by the acquiring team.

I was going to chime in on this discussion the other day, but was to busy..... Anyway, this post reminds me of one of the stats I was going to bring up. If we are so concerned with +/- Through the first 5 years of their careers, Kopi was a whopping -13 (if memory serves me correctly, while QB is sitting at a +36. At the time it must have meant that Kopi was not first line material and should have been traded.

Bruh… Dan Cloutier.

 

[symbology]

Bruh… Dan Cloutier.

You mean the guy that played in 33 horrible games for the Kings during the time that Kopi played over 390 games over 5 years? Kopi spent a lot more time playing in front of Quick in comparison.

Yes, the team did suck back then.

 

[Clif]

Byfield is a disappointment offensively this year. Byfield is a success defensively this year.

He is playing the hardest minutes with the most defensive zone starts against top competition. He plays fewer offensive zone starts than Kopitar.

He is not using his size enough. He is not going to the net enough. He is not taking over shifts. These things are that much harder to do when you are the shutdown center on the team.

Everyone on this team is disappointing offensively and physically compared to last season. They are near the bottom of the league in goals and regulation wins. No one is playing with enough edge or net presence other than 40 year old first time King Corey Perry.

Jim Hiller is a petulant, thin-skinned, outdated moron. He doubled down on last season’s playoff coaching, not last regular season’s coaching. If Kings lose 2-1 he will say they could have blocked another shot.

Byfield scored as many points last year taking on his own line as he did playing LW with Kopitar. Byfield hit last year (still want to see more). Byfielf wowed at times last year. Byfield was still responsible last year.

If everyone was kicking ass this season I’d be much more concerned about Byfield. But everyone is uninspiring and lame.

This season sucks. Hiller is well past his expiration date. I wanted to watch Byfield take the next step this year but nothing is going to get better until Hiller is gone.

 

[DryKing]

I don't think there is enough development runway for QB to become a 1C. So where does that leave us? With a 2C who has great skills in his toolbox but can't put them together to be elite.

You are right up until the point in which he proves you wrong, should he ever do so. I think it's safe to consider him a top 6 forward with potential to grow into a top line center. Even if he ends up as a solid 2C, though, I do not consider that a loss or a miss.

Obviously there is not a way to accurately predict his future stats, but I used AI to try and predict a rough trajectory / estimate. Obviously this is pure speculation, but below is the output:

Interestingly, even with a potential breakout year occurring in 27/28 his stat-line doesn't change a whole lot and the estimate (further in his career) has him capping out in the 70 point range. Therein, AI seems to agree with you that from an offensive output perspective he is somewhat near his ceiling (expecting roughly a 21% growth).

Personally I think he ends up in the 1B range averaging 60-80 points per season.

 

[Johnnysuede71]

Yep, please continue to cherry pick one stat and use that as evidence that QB is somehow better than Kopi. Haha.



And this^^^. It isn't that Byfield sucks. It is just that he isn't playing like you'd want/hope a #2 overall plays. Why is that so difficult for people here to understand? Fun fact, 2018 Caps had 14 first round picks on the team. What is the point of that? first rounders usually end up being solid NHL players but not all are top line guys. The 4C was Brett Connolly who was a #6 overall. He never became the player he was hoped to be but played over 500 NHL games.

Why is it so hard to conclude that Byfield isn't going to pan out as a 1C? So the Kings need to make appropriate plans for the roster like trading for one?


Which crowd is the bag of pucks crowd? Do you have proof of people saying that or are you just making a strawman argument? My guess is its the latter.

You are right up until the point in which he proves you wrong, should he ever do so. I think it's safe to consider him a top 6 forward with potential to grow into a top line center. Even if he ends up as a solid 2C, though, I do not consider that a loss or a miss.

Obviously there is not a way to accurately predict his future stats, but I used AI to try and predict a rough trajectory / estimate. Obviously this is pure speculation, but below is the output:


View attachment 13906

Interestingly, even with a potential breakout year occurring in 27/28 his stat-line doesn't change a whole lot and the estimate (further in his career) has him capping out in the 70 point range. Therein, AI seems to agree with you that from an offensive output perspective he is somewhat near his ceiling (expecting roughly a 21% growth).

Personally I think he ends up in the 1B range averaging 60-80 points per season.

I guess AI is programmed for optimism. lol.

 

[DarkLeftHand]

You mean the guy that played in 33 horrible games for the Kings during the time that Kopi played over 390 games over 5 years? Kopi spent a lot more time playing in front of Quick in comparison.

Yes, the team did suck back then.

Exactly my point, Rob Blake was -26 Kopi’s first year, and Nordstrom was -20 the first year. The teams Anze played on his first few years are in no way comparable to the cushion Byfield has had his first 3-4 seasons. Give me a f***ing break..