Question for the doubters

If you were to choose to trade for (and keep) Gavrikov and Dubois, would you be willing to give up the following assets?
  • Quick
  • Walker
  • Petersen
  • Grans
  • Durzi
  • Vilardi
  • Iafallo
  • Kupari
  • 1st rd pick
  • 2nd rd pick
  • 3rd rd pick
  • sacrifice $2 mil in cap space for Provorov
  • (Did I miss anything? I may have... and if I did... isn't that a bit troubling that there's more?)
Because that's what Blake did. Is this great asset management? Would this be a good package if it meant Eichel and Pietrangelo coming back? But that's not who we have. (Oh, and Gavrikov is only signed for 2 years)

The two most valuable assets in that list are Vilardi and a 1st round pick. Nothing else on that list is particularly painful especially when you consider those moves allow players with higher upside a chance to move up the development ladder.
 
If you were to choose to trade for (and keep) Gavrikov and Dubois, would you be willing to give up the following assets?
  • Quick
  • Walker
  • Petersen
  • Grans
  • Durzi
  • Vilardi
  • Iafallo
  • Kupari
  • 1st rd pick
  • 2nd rd pick
  • 3rd rd pick
  • sacrifice $2 mil in cap space for Provorov
  • (Did I miss anything? I may have... and if I did... isn't that a bit troubling that there's more?)
Because that's what Blake did. Is this great asset management? Would this be a good package if it meant Eichel and Pietrangelo coming back? But that's not who we have. (Oh, and Gavrikov is only signed for 2 years)
Several of these players actually had a negative trade value or would net very little in return if traded, so your list looks way worse than it really is! Lots of quantity yes, but not much quality…

According to me only Vilardi and the 1st round pick had a high value, everything else I have no problem at all trading!
 
Several of these players actually had a negative trade value or would net very little in return if traded, so your list looks way worse than it really is! Lots of quantity yes, but not much quality…

According to me only Vilardi and the 1st round pick had a high value, everything else I have no problem at all trading!
You could add Durzi, but he was about to become too expensive to keep a year from now. With Clarke waiting you sell on Durzi and move on.

To that extent would you trade Vilardi and a first for PLD and Gavrikov? Sounds a lot better.
 
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You're forgetting Drew Doughty who Blake significantly overpaid and couldn't sway to take a home town discount especially given he had spent his whole career with the Kings and "wants to win more cup" (apparently by taking a large portion of the payroll and handicapping the teams ability to sign top FAs in the process).

Peterson was a bad move that made very little sense, but Doughty was a worse signing imo.

Daunault was also seen as an overpayment at the time of signing, though I think it was a good move. Gav is also an overpayment but something I think we can live with and what it took to retain him, so not faulting Blake for that one.

To me, there is no question that Moore is overpaid presently. It'll probably turn out to be a pretty decent deal though.

When it comes to DD, I have a lot of sympathy for Rob. It was a lose-lose situation that could not be a winning one if the main focus or even value of western life is $$$. Hometown discounts - proper ones, not talking about a couple 100k - are therefore incredibly rare and probably happen in cities with lesser tax, cheaper life, where the player is actually home etc.

There were only two choices - trade him or extend him for whatever the amount he asks for. The first would alienate at least half of the Kings' fanbase (or rather everyone but realists with hockey knowledge) and likely half of the teammates. After all it was probably even prohibited by the employers. NHL is a business, and not just in the case of (lack of) loyalty to the teams from players and to the players from front offices. It's also a business when it comes to stars bringing in money to the teams - including ticket sales, merch sales, sponsors etc.

LA is - from a hockey perspective - a relatively small market. There are two teams in very close vicinity, 4 in a bit larger vicinity. There are certain limitations as to what a franchise can afford to do unless the owner is a filthy rich sugar daddy running his dream hobby (then again you potentially have a ton of other problems related to that, of course).

The team owners are financially better off by risking a black hole with an overpaid star than they are by going into a rebuild by trading said star. That's why it took LA Kings so long to do things properly with DL.
 
When it comes to DD, I have a lot of sympathy for Rob. It was a lose-lose situation that could not be a winning one if the main focus or even value of western life is $$$. Hometown discounts - proper ones, not talking about a couple 100k - are therefore incredibly rare and probably happen in cities with lesser tax, cheaper life, where the player is actually home etc.

There were only two choices - trade him or extend him for whatever the amount he asks for. The first would alienate at least half of the Kings' fanbase (or rather everyone but realists with hockey knowledge) and likely half of the teammates. After all it was probably even prohibited by the employers. NHL is a business, and not just in the case of (lack of) loyalty to the teams from players and to the players from front offices. It's also a business when it comes to stars bringing in money to the teams - including ticket sales, merch sales, sponsors etc.

LA is - from a hockey perspective - a relatively small market. There are two teams in very close vicinity, 4 in a bit larger vicinity. There are certain limitations as to what a franchise can afford to do unless the owner is a filthy rich sugar daddy running his dream hobby (then again you potentially have a ton of other problems related to that, of course).

The team owners are financially better off by risking a black hole with an overpaid star than they are by going into a rebuild by trading said star. That's why it took LA Kings so long to do things properly with DL.
I believe in rewarding the franchise legends. Now of course there is a limit to this approach but Drew Doughty is the greatest defenseman in franchise history. His number will hang from the rafters. You pay him 100/100 times.

Just like Kopitar. you can afford to rebuild the rest of the organization around those two. Their retirement contracts are the tax you pay on winning two Stanley Cups.

Never forget that those two specifically turned a loser franchise into the model of the NHL for about 4 years. Not even Wayne Gretzky could do that.
 
I believe in rewarding the franchise legends. Now of course there is a limit to this approach but Drew Doughty is the greatest defenseman in franchise history. His number will hang from the rafters. You pay him 100/100 times.

Just like Kopitar. you can afford to rebuild the rest of the organization around those two. Their retirement contracts are the tax you pay on winning two Stanley Cups.

Never forget that those two specifically turned a loser franchise into the model of the NHL for about 4 years. Not even Wayne Gretzky could do that.
I agree. Kopitar and Doughty re-signing is completely understandable and defensible. I'm not even advocating trading them. Only exception to that is if they refuse to buy in to the team's direction.

My concern, though, regarding them, is if Kings management is still trying to chase a cup for them, instead of trying to get them to buy in for a couple years of struggles to rebuild.

My honest biggest criticism with Kings management is the inflexible approach to development. This isn't to say it sucks. Just that 5-7 year plans for prospects when players start becoming waiver eligible by year 5 leads to a lot of lost opportunities and wasted resources.

When the Kings signed Danault traded for Arvidsson, I thought it was great. I hoped the lineup would utilize the depth they acquired to help put the prospects in an appropriate role. This was my hopeful lineup at that time:

Kempe - Kopitar - Vilardi
Moore - Danault - Kaliyev
Iafallo - Byfield - Arvidsson
Grundstrom - Lizotte - Brown

Or something along those lines - put prospects with veterans to insulate them but let them grow into an appropriate role. Of course, if a player struggles, dial it back.

But it's a disservice to the prospect to try to learn to play the game drastically different. They're already having to learn to adjust in the NHL - I don't think it's reasonable to expect that amount of adjustment.

Plus, I think it sends a bad message to new players when the coach won't give them more time "until he trusts them." I think this leads to players more afraid to make a mistake.

Does the current approach work? Sure, eventually. But not everyone learns, the same way. And again, the Kings could wait 7-8 years for Kempe to break out. The Kings can't wait until 2027 for Byfield to break out. PLD just isn't the same caliber player to even temporarily replace him. And the Kings only have a finite amount of picks and prospects to keep trading away to keep themselves afloat.

Which is why I think the developmental approach has to be refactored. Not every prospect should be thrown to the wolves. But not every prospect should be expected to be a good defensive grinder either. And if a player makes the team, they should have the coach's trust, so they can be empowered to take smart chances and fit their game into the NHL paradigm.

Edit: of course, I have other complaints, but I think a lot would be mitigated or tolerable if the above is addressed.
 
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Are people going to lose their minds if the Kings struggle this coming season or will they be patient and realize the Kings will not be a contender for at least a couple more seasons.
 
Are people going to lose their minds if the Kings struggle this coming season or will they be patient and realize the Kings will not be a contender for at least a couple more seasons.
no matter what happens we will lose our minds .. its the game we love .. haha
 
Are people going to lose their minds if the Kings struggle this coming season or will they be patient and realize the Kings will not be a contender for at least a couple more seasons.
People will lose it and struggle is not the mindset Blake has. They made this change to be a contender now. Anything less than a first round win and this season is a complete failure. This is theoretically the final year of "the plan" and the expectations of both Kings management and the fanbase is that the team should be contenders now. That being said, 2024-25 season with the cap increase and reduced Kopi contract will likely be a year of even more significant change. Probably one more solid D man, one more impact forward (to replace Arvi) and a top tier goalie will be added to the lineup.
 
People will lose it and struggle is not the mindset Blake has. They made this change to be a contender now. Anything less than a first round win and this season is a complete failure. This is theoretically the final year of "the plan" and the expectations of both Kings management and the fanbase is that the team should be contenders now. That being said, 2024-25 season with the cap increase and reduced Kopi contract will likely be a year of even more significant change. Probably one more solid D man, one more impact forward (to replace Arvi) and a top tier goalie will be added to the lineup.
You laid out why I’m mostly fine with the moves Blake has made to this point. The team will be in a position to really take advantage of the cap going up next offseason with several key pieces already locked into long contracts.

Blake has built a playoff team with 2 top Centers, 2 top defensemen and 2 top wingers signed through the 25-26 season. There’s going to be plenty of cap space to fit in a big money goalie if he wants or fill any remaining hole he sees fit.
 
There’s going to be plenty of cap space to fit in a big money goalie if he wants or fill any remaining hole he sees fit.
The last two years have proven that the big money goalie isn't a required piece if your line up is deep enough and your defense is good. All the big money goalies got eliminated by journeymen with a smothering system in front of them.
 
The last two years have proven that the big money goalie isn't a required piece if your line up is deep enough and your defense is good. All the big money goalies got eliminated by journeymen with a smothering system in front of them.
I personally have no interest in spending big on a goalie but people complaining about this current team are focused on goaltending and how the precarious cap situation we’re in is a reason we won’t have good goaltending next season. I fundamentally disagree.

I’d rather see Blake spend big on a young d-man. Hopefully Clarke and Byfield have huge breakouts over the next two seasons but should that not be the case Blake will have space to work with.
 
The two most valuable assets in that list are Vilardi and a 1st round pick. Nothing else on that list is particularly painful especially when you consider those moves allow players with higher upside a chance to move up the development ladder.
Several of these players actually had a negative trade value or would net very little in return if traded, so your list looks way worse than it really is! Lots of quantity yes, but not much quality…

According to me only Vilardi and the 1st round pick had a high value, everything else I have no problem at all trading!

Honestly, I like that we will have 3 solid centers to cycle over the boards against opponents. BUT was it the best asset and cap management? I have to say no. Looking at that list, I count 7 regulars on the roster last season. That's 6-7 NHL players. (I consider Kupari a regular as he played 66 games. And who knows if Peterson will ever get his head on right.) And I'd count any 2nd rounder as being good value.

Not only did all of the moves so far in 2023 deplete our depth, but Blake traded what adds up to an entire forward line and one D-pair, not to mention 2 goalies, and all of that for one forward and one defenseman -- one player we needed (an LD) and moved to upgrade our center. I just really do not like the loss of depth and future we've given up. I can grant you that Spence and Clarke have room to move up. But our forwards took a hit and we don't have tons of ready-to-go forwards knocking down the door to make the club in the same way the RD position had. We just hope they'll be ready to go. And people here are talking of getting rid of Arvidsson and Moore next.

The players shipped off, those with "negative trade value" will get plenty of time playing in the league next season. Iafallo is an excellent character player and 2-way forward. Vilardi put it together and proved all the doubters wrong here, and I am certainly disappointed to lose him. I hope Kupari proves himself and gets more of an opportunity. Walker will most likely get his minutes. Durzi... okay, fine, I hope he coughs the puck up to Byfield so the guy puts it in the net to shut some people up here. I hope Quick moves up the all-time wins column more. All things they will likely achieve elsewhere... playing in the NHL. If they were of not much value, then they'll be hanging in the AHL next year. As for what's "painful?" Seeing 30% of the team shipped off to fit 8% on it and we're still struggling to fit under the cap. That paired with the forever cronyist boys' club this management has grown into is painful enough.

There. I feel better now.
 
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If you were to choose to trade for (and keep) Gavrikov and Dubois, would you be willing to give up the following assets?
  • Quick
  • Walker
  • Petersen
  • Grans
  • Durzi
  • Vilardi
  • Iafallo
  • Kupari
  • 1st rd pick
  • 2nd rd pick
  • 3rd rd pick
  • sacrifice $2 mil in cap space for Provorov
  • (Did I miss anything? I may have... and if I did... isn't that a bit troubling that there's more?)
Because that's what Blake did. Is this great asset management? Would this be a good package if it meant Eichel and Pietrangelo coming back? But that's not who we have. (Oh, and Gavrikov is only signed for 2 years)

- The 2nd round pic on this list, was that from trading Durzi. Cannot trade him twice. I do not think the Jets wanted or needed Durzi and told Blake give us a pick instead. I think Blade traded for that pick knowing it was going to the Jets the entire time. That is the same trade in my mind. Kind of a delayed 3 way trade while the extension was being worked out.
- Sacrafices 2mil? That was a heck of a trade. Traded two pieces @ 7 mil. Little chance that either of those players were going to play for the Kings this coming year. Cal may have even asked for a trade, so he could get out of the AHL. Blake had to take 2 mil back, but that trade was a win.
-Quick, sad to see him go. He was off his game all year. Played well in his first few with the Knights, then started to lose his angles again. The move as emotionally bad as it was, was an important one. Signing Cal to the contract was a big loss.
- Walker, again, was not going to play for the Kings. Few trade partners. Was destined to be waiver fodder.
- Grans, well in Ontario he started off with a good year, and followed it up with a bit of a stinker. It was tough to see him go. He probably was a little bit of a payment for them taking Walker
- Vilardi, tough to see him go. Not sure he was willing to accept a short term good guy deal. Cannot blame him, but it may be another reason to move him in the deal for PLD.
- Iafallo, tough to see him go. However, one, maybe even two of IA, TM, or VA needed to go to make room for Vilardi's contract had he stayed. If he ended up signing for 5.5 mil as some speculated he could get in Arbitration, that would have meant probably two of the 3 players above would need to be moved. 2 players ended up getting moved, but Vilardi was one of them.
- Kupari, again tough to see him go. However, he had ample opportunity to put it all together. We have waive eligible forwards that can probably replace his production. For cheaper as well. He has made some decent progress over the years, but at times he made poor decisions.
-Durzi, needed to be moved along with Walker to make room for the younger and hopefully better RHD prospects. He was prone to making mistakes and making bad reads on D. Still tough to see him go.
- 1st round pic helped stabilized the goaltending heading into the playoffs. Copely could not play out the rest of the season on his own, he was not used to that kind of load. The Kings may have missed the playoffs without this trade due to the play of Korpisalo and Gavrikov. That could have been a good thing.

Not saying I am happy with all of these trades. Though, I can see why they were made. Especially with Blake trying to make a winning team while Kopi and Doughty are still playing well.

You do realize that some teams have been trading players for "future considerations" just to clear up cap space. Vegas moved Pacioretti and Coghlan for "future considerations". Calgary moved Monahan and a 1st for "future considerations". GM's some times need to get creative to get players they no longer need/want moved off of the roster.
 
Honestly, I like that we will have 3 solid centers to cycle over the boards against opponents. BUT was it the best asset and cap management? I have to say no. Looking at that list, I count 7 regulars on the roster last season. That's 6-7 NHL players. (I consider Kupari a regular as he played 66 games. And who knows if Peterson will ever get his head on right.) And I'd count any 2nd rounder as being good value.

Not only did all of the moves so far in 2023 deplete our depth, but Blake traded what adds up to an entire forward line and one D-pair, not to mention 2 goalies, and all of that for one forward and one defenseman -- one player we needed (an LD) and moved to upgrade our center. I just really do not like the loss of depth and future we've given up. I can grant you that Spence and Clarke have room to move up. But our forwards took a hit and we don't have tons of ready-to-go forwards knocking down the door to make the club in the same way the RD position had. We just hope they'll be ready to go. And people here are talking of getting rid of Arvidsson and Moore next.

The players shipped off, those with "negative trade value" will get plenty of time playing in the league next season. Iafallo is an excellent character player and 2-way forward. Vilardi put it together and proved all the doubters wrong here, and I am certainly disappointed to lose him. I hope Kupari proves himself and gets more of an opportunity. Walker will most likely get his minutes. Durzi... okay, fine, I hope he coughs the puck up to Byfield so the guy puts it in the net to shut some people up here. I hope Quick moves up the all-time wins column more. All things they will likely achieve elsewhere... playing in the NHL. If they were of not much value, then they'll be hanging in the AHL next year. As for what's "painful?" Seeing 30% of the team shipped off to fit 8% on it and we're still struggling to fit under the cap. That paired with the forever cronyist boys' club this management has grown into is painful enough.

There. I feel better now.

As of now, it's 5 NHL players (Vilardi, Iafallo, Kupari, Walker, Durzi) for essentially PLD and Gavrikov. Vilardi is a long-term health question mark, so it's a TBD about him and whether or not he would be a feasible answer long-term in the top 6. With PLD this risk has been avoided at the risk Gabe becoming equal or better while healthy - though he'd never be a physical presence. Gavrikov wouldn't sign with the Kings had he not been traded for at the deadline. So a legit top 6 forward built for playoffs as a long-term solution and a top LD who is a known fit as a 2-year "rental" (maybe).

The cost seems high, yes, but especially because of Cal fiasco, which I hold A LOT more against Rob than the risk of PLD trade being lost on value.

But did all this really deplete our depth? Maybe it depleted the potential depth by not restocking the pick cupboard...but actual NHL level talent depth?

Iafallo was talked about being traded for a long time now. Had the Kings not needed cap space for PLD they would need it to resign Vilardi and they would probably target a more expensive goalie - perhaps even Korpisalo who got 4 million. Iafallo gone opens up a bigger role for Kaliyev and a chance for a prospect to prove himself in a long-term NHL role - Lias, JAD, Fagemo, Laferriere or Chromiak.

Kupari was a complete non-factor in playoffs and "a mix of Jesse Puljujärvi and Sebastian Aho" definitely seems on Puljujarvi's trajectory much more than Aho's. The Kings need either productive or gritty, relentless forecheckers and defensively gifted bottom six players, maybe an enforcer...and Kupari was none of that. If Kupari doesn't improve, he's the kind of player that's easily replaced via UFA without overpaying. Case in point, for next season he's replaced by Lewis which is a huge upgrade, especially with playoffs in mind.

Durzi gone opens up the space for Clarke. There's still Spence waiting on the depth list. No brainer. Potentially a significant upgrade, though not achieved by addition but rather substraction.

Walker was replaced with Gavrikov. Significant upgrade.


So this wheeling and dealing left the only real casualty in the pick cupboard. Everything else falls in place nicely and the team is - on paper - significantly better than last year and will most likely end up with a considerably better matchup come playoffs. So without a rebuild/retool being a realistic scenario from team owners/upper management POV, this is the next best thing - improve the team, get better seeding and make s*** happen come playoffs.

And should this not work in the next 2 years, Rob is likely getting fired. And again it's on the owners/upper management to decide the direction from there - another retool or a complete rebuild, which would be much more palpable given Kopitar's and DD's possible regression and questionable motivation.

Fact of the matter is, the "force a proper rebuild, get yourself some long-term elite players, win everything, rinse and repeat, build a dynasty" pipe dream that some fans keep thinking about is, in fact, so friggin' unlikely to happen it's not even funny. Even a rebuild to a decent Cup pretender is - for quite a lot of teams - a pipe dream. Buffalo, Arizona, Chicago, Detroit, Montreal, Anaheim, San Jose, Ottawa, Vancouver aren't even close after long suckages, heck even Edmonton, New York, Carolina etc. seem to be more like pretenders than contenders. There are so many factors with rebuilds and draft it's a total crapsh***, so that's why it's worth trying to retool (done) and then squeeze the most out of your "proven old core" that does actually know what it takes to win one last time before a proper rebuild for the post-Kopitar/DD era.
 
One more thing to consider for the folks who wanted a full dismantle rebuild, check out how difficult it’s been for San Jose to move Erik Karlsson. We’re talking about a guy who just won his 3rd Norris but because he’s owed so much cash trading him away turns out is pretty tough.

What do you think Blake would’ve gotten for Kopitar and Doughty when both guys had No Movement Clauses? Was Blake supposed to just give them away?
 
The last two years have proven that the big money goalie isn't a required piece if your line up is deep enough and your defense is good. All the big money goalies got eliminated by journeymen with a smothering system in front of them.
The Vegas plan. Heck, it even worked for the Kings last year with Copley. Build a solid team top to bottom in front of the goalie and make life a little easier for him. He'll still have to make the big save from time to time but not on a regular basis. Kings may not need a big money goalie but likely will need to solidify the rest of the roster.
 
The Vegas plan. Heck, it even worked for the Kings last year with Copley. Build a solid team top to bottom in front of the goalie and make life a little easier for him. He'll still have to make the big save from time to time but not on a regular basis. Kings may not need a big money goalie but likely will need to solidify the rest of the roster.

The last 7 Stanley Cup winning goalies:

2023 - Hill
2022 - Kuemper
2021 - Vasilevskiy
2020 - Vasilevskiy
2019 - Binnington
2018 - Holtby
2017 - Murray

Vas is the outlier of the bunch but I think this current trend shows if you can get great goaltending from a good goalie then you've got a shot at a Cup.
 
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