Is It Too Early To Start Talking About Hockey?

Dr. Tran

Dr. Tran

Super Star
Because I'm getting itchy. Have they announced when training camp starts or if there's a rookie camp or tournament before that? I'm looking over the roster, potential games to go to, and all that.And I have a bunch of thoughts that are all over the map but I hope not too much.

My guess for the lineup is -
Kuzmenko-Kopitar-Kempe
Fiala-Byfield-Laferriere
Foegele-Danault-Moore
Perry-Turcotte-Armia
Anderson-Doughty
Edmundson-Clarke
Dumoulin-Ceci
Kuemper-Forsberg
Extra F : Helenius, Lee, Thomas
Extra D : Moverare, Burroughs

PP1 : Kopitar-Kempe-Kuzmenko-Byfield-Fiala
PP2 : Turcotte-Moore-Laferriere/Foegele/Perry-Doughty-Clarke

Does this look correct? We could end up having the Byfield line as the 1st line & the Clarke pairing as 1st D pairing. But that's if those guys do well. Also, I put Turcotte as 4C because he has to be in the lineup & that's the only space left. Even though I think Helenius is a better fit on that line. But I've also got Turcotte on the 2nd PP unit to give him more scoring chances. I'm also not sure if I like Laf, Foegele or Perry on PP2. And I don't have anything for PK. I think it should be guys who don't get PP time like Danault & Armia. I'd also like to save Kopitar for the PP & not have him do double duty unless absolutely necessary. Other than that I don't know.

The other thing I noticed looking at our roster is that we're old. 12 out of 25 players are over 30 & 3 are 29. This plus it maybe being Kopitar's last year means we need to win now. Are we ready for that? Is this Cup or bust? It's also a key year for Byfield, Clarke, & Turcotte. Byfield & Clarke to prove they can be #1 guys. And Turcotte to prove he can be at least an everyday player, if not a top 6 player.

There's also the Hiller issue. How do people feel about him? He had a great regular season & he made some crazy moves that seemed to work out in the regular season. But he crapped on himself in the playoffs & was 90% of the reason why we lost the Oilers series. Does everyone agree or disagree with this? And do we give him a chance to coach in the playoffs & maybe redeem himself? Or is he a bad start or losing streak away from getting fired? From what it looks like, all the UFA signings were done to appease him because he couldn't trust young guys in the lineup. Which to me was a mistake but whatever. So if the team doesn't do well with those guys then maybe he should be fired.
 
Dr. Tran said:
Because I'm getting itchy. Have they announced when training camp starts or if there's a rookie camp or tournament before that? I'm looking over the roster, potential games to go to, and all that.And I have a bunch of thoughts that are all over the map but I hope not too much.

My guess for the lineup is -
Kuzmenko-Kopitar-Kempe
Fiala-Byfield-Laferriere
Foegele-Danault-Moore
Perry-Turcotte-Armia
Anderson-Doughty
Edmundson-Clarke
Dumoulin-Ceci
Kuemper-Forsberg
Extra F : Helenius, Lee, Thomas
Extra D : Moverare, Burroughs

PP1 : Kopitar-Kempe-Kuzmenko-Byfield-Fiala
PP2 : Turcotte-Moore-Laferriere/Foegele/Perry-Doughty-Clarke

Does this look correct? We could end up having the Byfield line as the 1st line & the Clarke pairing as 1st D pairing. But that's if those guys do well. Also, I put Turcotte as 4C because he has to be in the lineup & that's the only space left. Even though I think Helenius is a better fit on that line. But I've also got Turcotte on the 2nd PP unit to give him more scoring chances. I'm also not sure if I like Laf, Foegele or Perry on PP2. And I don't have anything for PK. I think it should be guys who don't get PP time like Danault & Armia. I'd also like to save Kopitar for the PP & not have him do double duty unless absolutely necessary. Other than that I don't know.

The other thing I noticed looking at our roster is that we're old. 12 out of 25 players are over 30 & 3 are 29. This plus it maybe being Kopitar's last year means we need to win now. Are we ready for that? Is this Cup or bust? It's also a key year for Byfield, Clarke, & Turcotte. Byfield & Clarke to prove they can be #1 guys. And Turcotte to prove he can be at least an everyday player, if not a top 6 player.

There's also the Hiller issue. How do people feel about him? He had a great regular season & he made some crazy moves that seemed to work out in the regular season. But he crapped on himself in the playoffs & was 90% of the reason why we lost the Oilers series. Does everyone agree or disagree with this? And do we give him a chance to coach in the playoffs & maybe redeem himself? Or is he a bad start or losing streak away from getting fired? From what it looks like, all the UFA signings were done to appease him because he couldn't trust young guys in the lineup. Which to me was a mistake but whatever. So if the team doesn't do well with those guys then maybe he should be fired.
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Looks about right but the Kings really need to ensure a few things:

1) Byfield completes the transition to becoming our L1 Center. I really think this means pairing him up with Kempe at some point this season. Also, Byfield needs to play a key role, and get consistent time, on the PP1. That may mean Kopitar eventually moving to PP2 and Clarke moving to PP1 at the some point this season.

2) Turcotte is given a key role in the top 9. Using him as a L4 center is bad news on multiple fronts (hinders his game, increases the chance of injury, doesn't give him a chance to shine by lacking a finisher on the line). I think Turcotte has already proven he is an every day NHL player. Now, as you said, he needs the chance to prove he is a top 9. Likely this means moving him to Danault's wing.

3) L4 needs to play physical. This means keeping Helenius in the lineup on the 4th line (where then, though, do you put Turcotte?)

4) Kings need to start the slow transition from Doughty to Clarke and ensure Clarke is given a portion of key moments / played in key situations. Full transition is likely 1-2 seasons away still, or possibly never depending on Clarke's development. If Clarke is going to be the future top D, we need to give him time on and off with Anderson this season.

Now if the Kings Org thinks they have put a Cup contender on the ice, likely none of these things happen.

My guess is that we see another season hampered by our HC's lack of foresight in an attempt to prove himself - Turcotte not getting a real shot to prove himself, unless a key injury arises, a slow transition from Kopitar to Byfield, leaving both lines looking largely the same, and Doughty continue to log heavy minutes and play the vast majority of key situations not allowing much development opportunity for Clarke.
 
DryKing said:
Looks about right but the Kings really need to ensure a few things:

1) Byfield completes the transition to becoming our L1 Center. I really think this means pairing him up with Kempe at some point this season. Also, Byfield needs to play a key role, and get consistent time, on the PP1. That may mean Kopitar eventually moving to PP2 and Clarke moving to PP1 at the some point this season.

2) Turcotte is given a key role in the top 9. Using him as a L4 center is bad news on multiple fronts (hinders his game, increases the chance of injury, doesn't give him a chance to shine by lacking a finisher on the line). I think Turcotte has already proven he is an every day NHL player. Now, as you said, he needs the chance to prove he is a top 9. Likely this means moving him to Danault's wing.

3) L4 needs to play physical. This means keeping Helenius in the lineup on the 4th line (where then, though, do you put Turcotte?)

4) Kings need to start the slow transition from Doughty to Clarke and ensure Clarke is given a portion of key moments / played in key situations. Full transition is likely 1-2 seasons away still, or possibly never depending on Clarke's development. If Clarke is going to be the future top D, we need to give him time on and off with Anderson this season.

Now if the Kings Org thinks they have put a Cup contender on the ice, likely none of these things happen.

My guess is that we see another season hampered by our HC's lack of foresight in an attempt to prove himself - Turcotte not getting a real shot to prove himself, unless a key injury arises, a slow transition from Kopitar to Byfield, leaving both lines looking largely the same, and Doughty continue to log heavy minutes and play the vast majority of key situations not allowing much development opportunity for Clarke.
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Interesting thoughts from both of you.
Dr. Tran is probably right that the lines are same as last year at least to begin with.
Dry King is correct to see the need to start looking to the future and giving Byfield, Clarke and Turcotte the opportunity to grow.

I agree that Helenius should be in the mix but unless there is a trade I don’t see how it happens.

With regard to Turcotte it’s absolutely right that he needs to play in the middle six for all the reasons noted. With the observation that this Kings team is a bit old I wonder if the bottom six can be refigured to allow both the third and fourth lines to play 12-14 minutes a night, which would decrease the minutes Kopi plays.
Maybe Danault-Armia-Moore/Turc-Foegele-Perry? (Still doesn’t solve the Helenius problem tho.).

Unless a trade is coming I don’t see how we see Turcotte and Helenius in the same lineup.

I think with this almost assuredly being the last season for Kopitar I don’t see this organization looking too far down the road. It’s win-now.

But, what lines we see at the start may well change as the season progresses. There is a lot of depth on the roster. (I actually liked Malott but he’s not even in the conversation this year. And what happens if Greentree forces himself onto this team?).

I still am on Hillers side. He made mistakes. It’s my hope that he’s smart enough to learn from them. Time will tell.

It’s nice to start thinking about actual hockey again.
 
DoubleMinor said:
Interesting thoughts from both of you.
Dr. Tran is probably right that the lines are same as last year at least to begin with.
Dry King is correct to see the need to start looking to the future and giving Byfield, Clarke and Turcotte the opportunity to grow.

I agree that Helenius should be in the mix but unless there is a trade I don’t see how it happens.

With regard to Turcotte it’s absolutely right that he needs to play in the middle six for all the reasons noted. With the observation that this Kings team is a bit old I wonder if the bottom six can be refigured to allow both the third and fourth lines to play 12-14 minutes a night, which would decrease the minutes Kopi plays.
Maybe Danault-Armia-Moore/Turc-Foegele-Perry? (Still doesn’t solve the Helenius problem tho.).

Unless a trade is coming I don’t see how we see Turcotte and Helenius in the same lineup.

I think with this almost assuredly being the last season for Kopitar I don’t see this organization looking too far down the road. It’s win-now.

But, what lines we see at the start may well change as the season progresses. There is a lot of depth on the roster. (I actually liked Malott but he’s not even in the conversation this year. And what happens if Greentree forces himself onto this team?).

I still am on Hillers side. He made mistakes. It’s my hope that he’s smart enough to learn from them. Time will tell.

It’s nice to start thinking about actual hockey again.
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Totally agree, I think the line combos Dr. Tran laid out are right, to start the season.

As much as Kuz helps our PP, re-signing him really left us with 1 forward too many. Not a bad problem to have considering it gives us depth when an injury occurs, but the young players who need development time will feel the impact.

Greentree is interesting as he is not eligible for the AHL and will likely regress under another season in the OHL. I personally think the logical move would be to move him to the NHL roster, but with the abundance of forwards we have - that really doesn't seem to be an option.

I'm with you and liked Malott also. I think he proved himself to be a solid 4th line player. Looks like his shot may come next season, or based on injury, given the off-season signings that took place. I actually think he was more effective than Lee, but Lee has more potential upside.
 
I think this will be a deja vu season. Good regular season. Playoff sputter. I would love nothing more than to be proved wrong, but this Kings roster, coaching staff, and front office group just isn't good enough yet... especially when compared to the Panthers. They may finally win a first round series... more likely they will make it 5 in-a-row first round losses... or even miss the playoffs entirely. Deeply disappointed in the off-season moves. It's still a team built around Kopi and Drew... and that is not a good thing.
 
DryKing said:
Totally agree, I think the line combos Dr. Tran laid out are right, to start the season.

As much as Kuz helps our PP, re-signing him really left us with 1 forward too many. Not a bad problem to have considering it gives us depth when an injury occurs, but the young players who need development time will feel the impact.

Greentree is interesting as he is not eligible for the AHL and will likely regress under another season in the OHL. I personally think the logical move would be to move him to the NHL roster, but with the abundance of forwards we have - that really doesn't seem to be an option.

I'm with you and liked Malott also. I think he proved himself to be a solid 4th line player. Looks like his shot may come next season, or based on injury, given the off-season signings that took place. I actually think he was more effective than Lee, but Lee has more potential upside.
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I am really hoping Greentree shows big progress at this coming camp and steals a roster spot. They would then be able to trade Moore, one of Turcotte/Helenius and/or one of Burroughs/Moverare to get a LW3 with size or a true 4C or improve the defense depth.
 
VCRW said:
I think this will be a deja vu season. Good regular season. Playoff sputter. I would love nothing more than to be proved wrong, but this Kings roster, coaching staff, and front office group just isn't good enough yet... especially when compared to the Panthers. They may finally win a first round series... more likely they will make it 5 in-a-row first round losses... or even miss the playoffs entirely. Deeply disappointed in the off-season moves. It's still a team built around Kopi and Drew... and that is not a good thing.
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Yup, pretty much a "tread water" season.
Holland gets a free CYA season for himself.

After this season ends in typical fashion (see the last seasons of late memory - same as it ever was).....
Holland will fire Hiller (to the delight of all the fans).

Holland hires his coach choice. (TBD)

Clock starts ticking on the "New Era": New Coach, "New" GM, team moves on from Kopi/Drew (last of the 2-Time Cup winner players)


This is the hold-over season.
Smart fans will keep their $$ in their pockets and wait this one out.
 
VCRW said:
I am really hoping Greentree shows big progress at this coming camp and steals a roster spot. They would then be able to trade Moore, one of Turcotte/Helenius and/or one of Burroughs/Moverare to get a LW3 with size or a true 4C or improve the defense depth.
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I really hope he doesn't, we forget how young these guys are. Let them have their 19-20yo seasons where they can learn to master their skills and come up at 21-22 when their bodies are ready to compete.
 
jammer06 said:
I really hope he doesn't, we forget how young these guys are. Let them have their 19-20yo seasons where they can learn to master their skills and come up at 21-22 when their bodies are ready to compete.
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Based on my experience playing up through leagues, a player's skills tend to deteriorate more than they improve when playing in a league in which they are grossly over-skilled for. In Greentree's case he could spend the time further improving his skating but he is skilled enough to get away with things, potentially developing bad habits, which will hit him hard in the next league.

It's very difficult to go from significantly punching down in a league to significantly punching up - especially if the gap is the OHL and NHL. At least last season he had Protas to compete with and help drive him forward, but I also think having Protas allowed him to get away with playing a slower foot game and set a level of talent to keep pace with rather than fully push forward.

Next season Protas will be in the AHL so what does that really leave for Greentree? On the positive side Nesbitt should be significantly improved, but my guess is boredom as Greentree finds himself in a holding position without the opportunity to step forward to accelerate his growth.
 
DryKing said:
Based on my experience playing up through leagues, a player's skills tend to deteriorate more than they improve when playing in a league in which they are grossly over-skilled for. In Greentree's case he could spend the time further improving his skating but he is skilled enough to get away with things, potentially developing bad habits, which will hit him hard in the next league.

It's very difficult to go from significantly punching down in a league to significantly punching up - especially if the gap is the OHL and NHL. At least last season he had Protas to compete with and help drive him forward, but I also think having Protas allowed him to get away with playing a slower foot game and set a level of talent to keep pace with rather than fully push forward.

Next season Protas will be in the AHL so what does that really leave for Greentree? On the positive side Nesbitt should be significantly improved, but my guess is boredom as Greentree finds himself in a holding position without the opportunity to step forward to accelerate his growth.
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Some of it depends on the person. I agree with your points though.
Guys who are in a positive mental position with a real competitive spirit want the opportunity to play with and against better players. They need that. They want the challenge.
Playing “down” just doesn’t allow a player to progress quickly, again, for the most part.
 
If it's not too early to talk about Halloween, it's not too early to talk about Hockey.

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;)
 
DryKing said:
Based on my experience playing up through leagues, a player's skills tend to deteriorate more than they improve when playing in a league in which they are grossly over-skilled for. In Greentree's case he could spend the time further improving his skating but he is skilled enough to get away with things, potentially developing bad habits, which will hit him hard in the next league.

It's very difficult to go from significantly punching down in a league to significantly punching up - especially if the gap is the OHL and NHL. At least last season he had Protas to compete with and help drive him forward, but I also think having Protas allowed him to get away with playing a slower foot game and set a level of talent to keep pace with rather than fully push forward.

Next season Protas will be in the AHL so what does that really leave for Greentree? On the positive side Nesbitt should be significantly improved, but my guess is boredom as Greentree finds himself in a holding position without the opportunity to step forward to accelerate his growth.
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He might get his 9 games, but I don't think he's anywhere near ready for regular NHL duty and sitting in the press box is not going to do much for him.
 
DryKing said:
Based on my experience playing up through leagues, a player's skills tend to deteriorate more than they improve when playing in a league in which they are grossly over-skilled for. In Greentree's case he could spend the time further improving his skating but he is skilled enough to get away with things, potentially developing bad habits, which will hit him hard in the next league.

It's very difficult to go from significantly punching down in a league to significantly punching up - especially if the gap is the OHL and NHL. At least last season he had Protas to compete with and help drive him forward, but I also think having Protas allowed him to get away with playing a slower foot game and set a level of talent to keep pace with rather than fully push forward.

Next season Protas will be in the AHL so what does that really leave for Greentree? On the positive side Nesbitt should be significantly improved, but my guess is boredom as Greentree finds himself in a holding position without the opportunity to step forward to accelerate his growth.
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In the last 50 years of the transfer agreement the amount of players that play and excel in this league when they are u20 eligible is strikingly small. Your position has a logic, mine has verifiable data. It's not the end of the prospect world to build your game and learn to be a pro.
 
jammer06 said:
In the last 50 years of the transfer agreement the amount of players that play and excel in this league when they are u20 eligible is strikingly small. Your position has a logic, mine has verifiable data. It's not the end of the prospect world to build your game and learn to be a pro.
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You are speaking to the law of averages, to which I agree, but that has nothing to do with my point - my point was in regards to the best opportunity for development, not which league he would excel in. The only league options, in this equation, are the OHL and NHL. It's also verified fact that the average top performer loses momentum if not challenged. It's not simply a black and white scenario.

Speaking of law of averages, Liam tied for the 171st most points in a season, in the history of the OHL. That's what, top 1% of OHL players all-time? He's got a long way to go but it's hard to say he has had an average career to this point.
 
DryKing said:
imo he needs to be in the AHL next season - really crappy rule that he is not eligible to do so. Hopefully that changes soon.
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it might be too late for this season, but he should look to college hockey as an option. Instead of being in the OHL & beating up on guys his age, or going up against guys in their mid to late 20’s in the AHL, he could play against 18-22 year olds in college. Plus he’d have more time to practice & still build up his body. I think this is an option more young players should think about. But he’s probably going back to the OHL.

I just realized that if he signed an NHL contract that college is not an option. Oh well.
 
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DryKing said:
Looks about right but the Kings really need to ensure a few things:

1) Byfield completes the transition to becoming our L1 Center. I really think this means pairing him up with Kempe at some point this season. Also, Byfield needs to play a key role, and get consistent time, on the PP1. That may mean Kopitar eventually moving to PP2 and Clarke moving to PP1 at the some point this season.

2) Turcotte is given a key role in the top 9. Using him as a L4 center is bad news on multiple fronts (hinders his game, increases the chance of injury, doesn't give him a chance to shine by lacking a finisher on the line). I think Turcotte has already proven he is an every day NHL player. Now, as you said, he needs the chance to prove he is a top 9. Likely this means moving him to Danault's wing.

3) L4 needs to play physical. This means keeping Helenius in the lineup on the 4th line (where then, though, do you put Turcotte?)

4) Kings need to start the slow transition from Doughty to Clarke and ensure Clarke is given a portion of key moments / played in key situations. Full transition is likely 1-2 seasons away still, or possibly never depending on Clarke's development. If Clarke is going to be the future top D, we need to give him time on and off with Anderson this season.

Now if the Kings Org thinks they have put a Cup contender on the ice, likely none of these things happen.

My guess is that we see another season hampered by our HC's lack of foresight in an attempt to prove himself - Turcotte not getting a real shot to prove himself, unless a key injury arises, a slow transition from Kopitar to Byfield, leaving both lines looking largely the same, and Doughty continue to log heavy minutes and play the vast majority of key situations not allowing much development opportunity for Clarke.
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I totally agree about Turcotte. I just don’t have a spot for him in the top 9. And I’d rather keep him as center than wing. He can work on his face offs & defense. And with him on the PP2 unit he gets a chance to score. And he’d be the 1st to move up if someone gets injured. If he plays this role & gets over 15 goals, I’d be happy with that & could put him at 2C next year.

What I’d like to see with the 4th line is for Helenius & Lee to get integrated into the lineup. I think both of them have to clear waivers so I don’t want to send them down. And they deserve to stay up. I also don’t think Perry & Armia are every day players. And I’d also do the same for our 3rd D pairing for the same reasons. Give Dumoulin & Ceci an occasional night off & put in Moverare & Burroughs. But I don’t think Hiller is great at getting guys in the lineup when they’ve sat too long.

And if everything is going well for Byfield, I’d love to see a Fiala-Byfield-Kempe line by January.
 
If Greentree shows he's ready, then Moore, Turcotte and Edmundson need to be shipped to Buffalo for Byram (include a 3rd team if necessary and get a pick in return, too).

One can dream, right?

Kuzmenko-Kopitar-Kempe
Fiala-Byfield-Laferriere
Foegele-Danault-Greentree
Perry-Helenius-Armia

Byram-Doughty
Anderson-Clarke
Dumoulin-Ceci

Kuemper-Forsberg

Extra F : Lee, Thomas
Extra D : Moverare
 
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