Marner Watch

[Earl]

I just went back and listened to his comment. He was not calling out a single player, he said "some

I mean I guess we are all just guessing as I went back and listened to it and to me he's singling out one person under the cover of saying some guys. I just know Roy was liked in the locker room whereas Dubois was I won't say hated by most of the team but he wasn't exactly loved by them as his aloof attitude really rubbed most the wrong way from the coaches to the on ice staff.

 

[DryKing]

I suppose it just depends on the definition of 'superstar'. To me it's consistency over time. (i.e. 100 point seasons and deep playoff runs etc.) No arguing both goalies in this conversation were/are superstars. It's why I made sure to bring it up.

PS- plenty of non 'superstar' caliber players are selected to National teams.

I can get behind that for the most part, but I don't think you average star player makes the HoF (which we know Kopi will and Barkov may).

I see it as certain teams having under the radar superstars - those who do not put up 100 point seasons but are invaluable to their teams, often nominated for elite hardware and eventually make the HoF. They just aren't necessarily the "sexy" superstars, perhaps even tier 1 superstars (generational talents) or those the media clings to.

It's an interesting equation to try to define. Someone like Gaborik, for instance, never put up a 100 point season yet he was considered one of the best in the game for several seasons. Sergei Makarov was also a superstar, though he was unable to join the NHL until his 30's due to political struggles and yet still almost averaged a point per game in the NHL (no 100 point seasons).

 

[Birdman]

I think of Mitch Marner as being somewhat similar to Jeff Carter for the Kings. IIRC, wasn't Carter thougth to be unreliable and immature despite his size and skill prior to joining the Kings? They way I see it, we acquire Marner who is an elite talent, which is hard to come by, and then surround him with the winning players like Justin Williams and Mike Richards similar to what Deano did with Carter.

I'm not saying there aren't concerns with Marner since he has a meddling agent and father much like Jack Johnson did with his father, but Marner seems to actually care about doing what it takes to win. His postseason performance and emotional meltdowns seem to also stem from such caring. Maybe the dude cares "too much" in putting so much on himself. Or maybe he's also an a-hole that blames his teammates for not doing enough to support him. The point is acquiring Marner as a free agent is one huge move but the organization would need to do more in finding the right mix to get the most out of him including finding teammates that will elevate him by showing and guiding him towards channeling his emotions into something productive by playing the right way.

Jeff Carter is 6’3”/ 215 Lbs., was a Gym Rat, and wasn’t afraid to play physical.

Marner is 6’0”/180 Lbs. and avoids contact at all costs.

After watching the Panthers win 2 straight cups playing the same style we did from 2012-2014, would you all wake up and realize that we don’t want or need Mitch Marner. There’s a reason the Leafs didn’t win with the “Core 4”.

WE NEED MOAR BIG STRAPPING BODIES!

 

[Earl]

I know he's staying but what we need IMO is a Bennett type as to me the last 4 years we've also been bullied by the Oilers and I don't mean fighting but more general tough play. I'm sick of seeing Kempe and Fiala in the middle of scrums. I won't be brokenhearted if we sign Marner as that's adding some pretty amazing skill to an already skilled team with no subtraction, not many chances like that come up but at a cost of $14,000,000 that pretty much wipes out picking some 4th liners who could offer pushback when the rough stuff starts. I forget what game it was but it was Kane who essentially kneed Kuemper in the head and not one King offered any kind of retaliation which concerns me. Put it this way, if you did that to Bob what do you think the Panthers response would be?

 

[symbology]

Jeff Carter is 6’3”/ 215 Lbs., was a Gym Rat, and wasn’t afraid to play physical.

Marner is 6’0”/180 Lbs. and avoids contact at all costs.

After watching the Panthers win 2 straight cups playing the same style we did from 2012-2014, would you all wake up and realize that we don’t want or need Mitch Marner. There’s a reason the Leafs didn’t win with the “Core 4”.

WE NEED MOAR BIG STRAPPING BODIES!

I would prefer the Kings do not go after Marner and go after other pieces instead.

However, not sure why you want the Kings to bulk up even more. The average weight of the Kings players is 202.2 lbs while the average weight of the Panthers is 196.0. How much bigger and slower do the Kings need to be in order to beat the Panthers?

Maybe the Panthers are a very well coached team with no soft players (Marners). They are the 25th heaviest team in the league and the Kings are the 7th heaviest. The Panthers are not overly speedy either. They are a group of solid players with good hockey IQ that play a physical game. They have some high end skill, but not what one would call "top end" skill. Overall their defensemen have above average mobility and are all good at moving the puck up the ice. They are not going to "Makar" the puck up the ice, but they are darn good at getting the puck out of their zone. Either by skating it, or making a good first pass onto the sticks of their teammates.

I guess the way that I see it is this. The Kings do not need "more big strapping bodies", or "smallish soft players". IMO, those types of players are not going to help this team go anywhere. I do not think that Mitch Marner is going to move the needle any more than "Big Strapping" Joel Edmundson did.

 

[symbology]

I mean I guess we are all just guessing as I went back and listened to it and to me he's singling out one person under the cover of saying some guys. I just know Roy was liked in the locker room whereas Dubois was I won't say hated by most of the team but he wasn't exactly loved by them as his aloof attitude really rubbed most the wrong way from the coaches to the on ice staff.

Could be, but there was really only one player on the ice that at that time (for the previous few weeks/month) that was consistently missing assignments and being out of position in order to be in a better position to generate points. That player goes by the name of Matt Roy.

Sure Dubois sucked, lacked effort, but he did not really play just to pad stats did he? Why say he was being selfish? He was being lazy. Same can be said about Fiala. He took some dumb penalties and made risky plays that failed. You don't really say that Fiala was being selfish though and was just worried about points. He was stupid, yeah of course. From what I was seeing only Roy fit the bill for a player shirking his responsibilities in order to be up the ice and in a position to be involved in the offence. He was the only player in my mind that was being selfish and worrying about his points only. He was the player that probably new he was not getting signed and was playing accordingly.

 

[Statue4Deano]

I guess the way that I see it is this. The Kings do not need "more big strapping bodies", or "smallish soft players". IMO, those types of players are not going to help this team go anywhere. I do not think that Mitch Marner is going to move the needle any more than "Big Strapping" Joel Edmundson did.

Did adding Kuzmenko move the needle? I’d say he moved it to the point where the Kings had the Oilers 20 minutes away from being down 0-3.

Now what happens when you add a player who does everything that Kuzmenko does with the puck and he’s 2.5x as productive. And he kills penalties. And he plays defense when he isn’t scoring. And he’s a right shot. He moves the needle. The question is how far does he move it.

If Holland would rather bring back Gavrikov and Kuzmenko and try to find an upgrade for Spence is that team good enough to beat the Oilers next season? Highly doubtful with regression staring a bunch of players in the face. The roster needs to be upgraded. Running it back and praying for Byfield and Clarke to find the next development step is not a smart strategy. Raise the ceiling on the roster not the floor.

 

[Ranma]

Jeff Carter is 6’3”/ 215 Lbs., was a Gym Rat, and wasn’t afraid to play physical.

Marner is 6’0”/180 Lbs. and avoids contact at all costs.

After watching the Panthers win 2 straight cups playing the same style we did from 2012-2014, would you all wake up and realize that we don’t want or need Mitch Marner. There’s a reason the Leafs didn’t win with the “Core 4”.

WE NEED MOAR BIG STRAPPING BODIES!

My comparison of Marner and Carter had more to do with their respective reputations and talent. Yes, Marner has been criticized for his postseason performance or lack thereof, but I'm not sure if it's fair to say that he avoids contact at all costs. Maybe it is and I would share in your concerns in that manner, but in the video highlight I saw, Marner threw his body to block the puck multiple times to literally win a game, so I'm not sure if your accusation is really true.

Plus, as I also noted, I didn't say that he alone was going to get the Kings over the hump but rather that he'd be a key component to winning. Furthermore, I'm also inclined to add size to the team but not at the exclusion of skill. It's not like a team full of big bodies alone is going to win the Kings anything either, especially if those big strapping lads are slow afoot and lacking in skill. Carter wasn't lacking in skill now was he?

Ziggy Palffy never won a Stanley Cup, so are you implying that Palffy was not worthy to contributing to a winner? Heck, the Kings needed to trade for the skilled Marion Gaborik to help them win their second Cup. Whether you like it or not, today's NHL requires skilled players more than ever, but I'm advocating for a mix of talent and winning players elevating said talent. Size and physicality can certainly help and is welcomed but acquiring elite skilled players should be a priority along with adding winning players, by the way.

Carter was a key component to the Kings' Stanley Cups, but as I mentioned, he had a reputation for not being a winner prior to joining the Kings. However, when he arrived in Los Angeles, Lombardi crafted a team that surrounded him with winning players like Justin Williams, Mike Richards to go along with the homegrown talent and character featured by Anze Kopitar, Dustin Brown and Drew Doughty all at their respective peak levels. This seemed to have elevated Carter's play to where he was certainly a reliable and key contributor to the championship teams.

As I've admitted, I still have reservations about Marner, especially with regards to his meddling agent and father, but you seem to be blaming Marner solely for the Maple Leafs not winning in Toronto when you literally mentioned that he was but one of the "Core 4". Plus, when was the last time the Maple Leafs won the Stanley Cup, by the way? That organization's failure to win certainly preceded Marner's arrival to Toronto. And given the drama that he and his family endured in Toronto, I'm not sure Marner is solely to blame for things not working out.

Admittedly, I've always been a fan of Marner's since his draft year, but as I've already mentioned before, I do have concerns about his emotional stability in high-pressure moments as well as the people who are designated to manage his career. Based on what I've seen, which I acknowledge to be limited, the dude cares about winning...maybe too much so in terms of being able to direct his emotions to focusing on performing in the clutch...and the hope is for Holland to surround him with winning players to elevate and unlock Marner's potential for postseason breakthroughs.

For all the talk about Marner's finesse in offensive ability, don't forget that he's recognized as a two-way player, so it's not like we'd be getting a one-trick pony.

 

[Halfwall]

Not to mention Bobs who was a Vezina finalist last season, and previous to that a Vezina winner and Hart Finalist. I'd say that falls within superstar status.

During the Kings run, Quick was a Vezina finalist (2012) and Kopi was a Selke finalist (2014). The definitely won more by committee than what we see with many teams, but while they may not have gotten the media hype and attention they were high end stars, if not superstars.

I'm glad you didn't mention that plug Drew Doughty--merely the best D man in the league.

 

[Clif]

I would prefer the Kings do not go after Marner and go after other pieces instead.

However, not sure why you want the Kings to bulk up even more. The average weight of the Kings players is 202.2 lbs while the average weight of the Panthers is 196.0. How much bigger and slower do the Kings need to be in order to beat the Panthers?

Maybe the Panthers are a very well coached team with no soft players (Marners). They are the 25th heaviest team in the league and the Kings are the 7th heaviest. The Panthers are not overly speedy either. They are a group of solid players with good hockey IQ that play a physical game. They have some high end skill, but not what one would call "top end" skill. Overall their defensemen have above average mobility and are all good at moving the puck up the ice. They are not going to "Makar" the puck up the ice, but they are darn good at getting the puck out of their zone. Either by skating it, or making a good first pass onto the sticks of their teammates.

I guess the way that I see it is this. The Kings do not need "more big strapping bodies", or "smallish soft players". IMO, those types of players are not going to help this team go anywhere. I do not think that Mitch Marner is going to move the needle any more than "Big Strapping" Joel Edmundson did.

Hell of a post. I’ll add that Friedman and Marek are both comparing this year’s Panthers to the 2012 Kings, saying that Kings squad is the only team in the salary cap era to go on as dominant of a run. The SDPN boys said the same, and added in the 13 Hawks. The common link they talk about apart from the grinding is that every player had 100 percent buy in to their roles on both teams.

This may be as dead a horse to beat as “big strapping bodies” at this point, but the Kings lost in large part due to Jim Hiller’s coaching failure. You can’t have every guy buy in when you don’t play every guy. You can’t have every guy buy in when they’re too tired to play their full game in the third period. Maybe that’s an argument to spend the money upgrading the fourth line and Spence, and give Hiller guys he can trust. I’m all for trading Spence, but I’d like to have seen more ice time for the fourth to really determine how necessary that is. They looked quite competent in game 6.

Fraser and Nolan didn’t even get to play in the 2014 run. King was still reliable enough for the fourth line, but was beginning to play his way out of the league. These were borderline NHL players. Sutter gave everyone and role and trusted them to execute. And they did.

 

[symbology]

Did adding Kuzmenko move the needle? I’d say he moved it to the point where the Kings had the Oilers 20 minutes away from being down 0-3.

Now what happens when you add a player who does everything that Kuzmenko does with the puck and he’s 2.5x as productive. And he kills penalties. And he plays defense when he isn’t scoring. And he’s a right shot. He moves the needle. The question is how far does he move it.

If Holland would rather bring back Gavrikov and Kuzmenko and try to find an upgrade for Spence is that team good enough to beat the Oilers next season? Highly doubtful with regression staring a bunch of players in the face. The roster needs to be upgraded. Running it back and praying for Byfield and Clarke to find the next development step is not a smart strategy. Raise the ceiling on the roster not the floor.

Good point, but does Marner move the needle $8million more than Kuzmenko? Small sample size but Kuzmenko is more productive than Marner in the playoffs. Marner would eat up a ton of cap space that would not be available to upgrade elsewhere.

If the Kings had a healthy Jeannot on the 4th line would that have allowed the 4th line to get more minutes and the entire team to be more effective against the Oilers?

If the Oilers had Hyman, and RNH did not play with a broken hand and Ekholm was 100% could they have beaten the Panthers? Hyman was a big loss against the Panthers IMO. He is one of their better forecheckers and is great along the boards.

If Holland re-signs Gavy, this team will not change in any significant way. Could they beat the Oilers next year? Sure, if healthy and some of the young kids make strides like they should. There is a very good chance that the Oilers will be worse off next year anyway.

I am not totally against the Kings signing Marner. If they can get him for something reasonable, but at over 13mil, I would rather not.

Lets not forget this important fact. The Kings have not won CRAP since signing Kopitar's $10mil and Doughty's $11mil contracts.

 

[VCRW]

Let’s not forget this important fact. The Kings have not won CRAP since signing Kopitar's $10mil and Doughty's $11mil contracts.

Exactly…

 

[Birdman]

My comparison of Marner and Carter had more to do with their respective reputations and talent. Yes, Marner has been criticized for his postseason performance or lack thereof, but I'm not sure if it's fair to say that he avoids contact at all costs. Maybe it is and I would share in your concerns in that manner, but in the video highlight I saw, Marner threw his body to block the puck multiple times to literally win a game, so I'm not sure if your accusation is really true.

Plus, as I also noted, I didn't say that he alone was going to get the Kings over the hump but rather that he'd be a key component to winning. Furthermore, I'm also inclined to add size to the team but not at the exclusion of skill. It's not like a team full of big bodies alone is going to win the Kings anything either, especially if those big strapping lads are slow afoot and lacking in skill. Carter wasn't lacking in skill now was he?

Ziggy Palffy never won a Stanley Cup, so are you implying that Palffy was not worthy to contributing to a winner? Heck, the Kings needed to trade for the skilled Marion Gaborik to help them win their second Cup. Whether you like it or not, today's NHL requires skilled players more than ever, but I'm advocating for a mix of talent and winning players elevating said talent. Size and physicality can certainly help and is welcomed but acquiring elite skilled players should be a priority along with adding winning players, by the way.

Carter was a key component to the Kings' Stanley Cups, but as I mentioned, he had a reputation for not being a winner prior to joining the Kings. However, when he arrived in Los Angeles, Lombardi crafted a team that surrounded him with winning players like Justin Williams, Mike Richards to go along with the homegrown talent and character featured by Anze Kopitar, Dustin Brown and Drew Doughty all at their respective peak levels. This seemed to have elevated Carter's play to where he was certainly a reliable and key contributor to the championship teams.

As I've admitted, I still have reservations about Marner, especially with regards to his meddling agent and father, but you seem to be blaming Marner solely for the Maple Leafs not winning in Toronto when you literally mentioned that he was but one of the "Core 4". Plus, when was the last time the Maple Leafs won the Stanley Cup, by the way? That organization's failure to win certainly preceded Marner's arrival to Toronto. And given the drama that he and his family endured in Toronto, I'm not sure Marner is solely to blame for things not working out.

Admittedly, I've always been a fan of Marner's since his draft year, but as I've already mentioned before, I do have concerns about his emotional stability in high-pressure moments as well as the people who are designated to manage his career. Based on what I've seen, which I acknowledge to be limited, the dude cares about winning...maybe too much so in terms of being able to direct his emotions to focusing on performing in the clutch...and the hope is for Holland to surround him with winning players to elevate and unlock Marner's potential for postseason breakthroughs.

For all the talk about Marner's finesse in offensive ability, don't forget that he's recognized as a two-way player, so it's not like we'd be getting a one-trick pony.

The entire world talks about his unwillingness to do the dirty work and handle contact. That is what wins come playoff time.

 

[symbology]

The entire world talks about his unwillingness to do the dirty work and handle contact. That is what wins come playoff time.

For sure that is a big concern that is not talked about enough. Many refer to him as being soft. That same is said of many skilled players. So, with everything we think we know about Marner......, we should not be expecting him to turn around his poor playoff performances should he become a King.

 

[DryKing]

I'm glad you didn't mention that plug Drew Doughty--merely the best D man in the league.

Yeah wasn't sure how to best callout Drew in terms of being a superstar at that point. Drew was brilliant in both playoff runs but the seasons going into both Cups weren't his strongest. He was a Norris finalist prior to the Cup runs, though (and after).

 

[Statue4Deano]

The entire world talks about his unwillingness to do the dirty work and handle contact. That is what wins come playoff time.

What was the entire hockey world saying about Jeff Carter before he joined LA, his third team in 10 months?

Did they talk about his professionalism? His work ethic? His willingness to put in the effort to win come playoff time?

 

[Statue4Deano]

Lets not forget this important fact. The Kings have not won CRAP since signing Kopitar's $10mil and Doughty's $11mil contracts.

Causation/Correlation…

Nobody thinks paying a player outside his prime an elite paycheck is a good idea. The Kings wasted the latter part of Kopi and Drew’s prime. That’s on Dean, Blake and Luc not on the players.

Marner is 28 years old and should remain in his prime for 4+ seasons. You can’t ask for a bigger prime window for a free agent. If you’re going to sign the top free agents this is all part of the equation. It doesn’t mean you can’t win with expensive players. It means you can’t miss on those players and you can’t miss on the role players.

 

[Statue4Deano]

Hell of a post. I’ll add that Friedman and Marek are both comparing this year’s Panthers to the 2012 Kings, saying that Kings squad is the only team in the salary cap era to go on as dominant of a run. The SDPN boys said the same, and added in the 13 Hawks. The common link they talk about apart from the grinding is that every player had 100 percent buy in to their roles on both teams.

This may be as dead a horse to beat as “big strapping bodies” at this point, but the Kings lost in large part due to Jim Hiller’s coaching failure. You can’t have every guy buy in when you don’t play every guy. You can’t have every guy buy in when they’re too tired to play their full game in the third period. Maybe that’s an argument to spend the money upgrading the fourth line and Spence, and give Hiller guys he can trust. I’m all for trading Spence, but I’d like to have seen more ice time for the fourth to really determine how necessary that is. They looked quite competent in game 6.

Fraser and Nolan didn’t even get to play in the 2014 run. King was still reliable enough for the fourth line, but was beginning to play his way out of the league. These were borderline NHL players. Sutter gave everyone and role and trusted them to execute. And they did.

It’s just insane to me how perfectly Sutter coached that 2012 squad. The Kings won the Cup with Dustin ****ing Penner playing 2nd line minutes. Absolute masterclass by Sutter in maximizing role players.

All that said give me that 2014 team vs anyone in the cap era. They had the experience of winning a Cup. More internal development of the young core. And a healthy Marian Gaborik. What a team.

 

[Earl]

Could be, but there was really only one player on the ice that at that time (for the previous few weeks/month) that was consistently missing assignments and being out of position in order to be in a better position to generate points. That player goes by the name of Matt Roy.

Sure Dubois sucked, lacked effort, but he did not really play just to pad stats did he? Why say he was being selfish? He was being lazy. Same can be said about Fiala. He took some dumb penalties and made risky plays that failed. You don't really say that Fiala was being selfish though and was just worried about points. He was stupid, yeah of course. From what I was seeing only Roy fit the bill for a player shirking his responsibilities in order to be up the ice and in a position to be involved in the offence. He was the only player in my mind that was being selfish and worrying about his points only. He was the player that probably new he was not getting signed and was playing accordingly.

You might be right in terms of Fiala, I never thought about him being the one DD talked about as his play at times can be classified as selfish. For the record I'm a Dubois fan which will probably get me kicked off the board, been fascinated by him since juniors. I've watched hockey for 40 plus years and I don't think I've ever seen a player from juniors to years in the league play so aloof like he's skating in warm ups in the actual game. I just always assumed DD was talking about his playing style but I'm admittedly guessing. I do remember the home game against the Kraken where that by far and away was Dubois's best game as a King as he had all 3 primary assists on Moore's goals and I said to the person I was with "this is the guy we are paying 8.5 for!" Of course the next game he was completely invisible!

 

[symbology]

Causation/Correlation…

Nobody thinks paying a player outside his prime an elite paycheck is a good idea. The Kings wasted the latter part of Kopi and Drew’s prime. That’s on Dean, Blake and Luc not on the players.

Marner is 28 years old and should remain in his prime for 4+ seasons. You can’t ask for a bigger prime window for a free agent. If you’re going to sign the top free agents this is all part of the equation. It doesn’t mean you can’t win with expensive players. It means you can’t miss on those players and you can’t miss on the role players.

That is a plus, should the Kings sign him.