Kaliyev

[Statue4Deano]

At this point it is more about confidence than anything. Not a bad idea to send him down to the Reign to finish out the season and continue to hone his game. He still has a lot of potential and may play a role on the team should they not bring back Arvy.

There’s also a stylistic problem. The game the Kings play is not meant to generate the types of opportunities that a player like Kaliyev requires to produce 5 on 5.

Kaliyev’s game requires others on his line to set him up to finish. That’s why when he was at this best it came on the PP. Half of his career goals have come on the PP. He can’t generate those chances on his own.

Now I don’t have a problem with a PP specialist but the organization does because they need a certain type of player for their preferred 5 on 5 style. Kaliyev is a little too slow and too risky with the puck on his stick.

I’m not ready to cut bait on the kid just yet but if he’s not going to get PP time there’s no point in playing him. I do have a vision in my head of a QB/Turcotte/Kaliyev line but there’s no chance it ever gets an extended look.

 

[DryKing]

I disagree.

At this point, he is what he is. Can he change? Sure, but I think the coaches have drilled into him what they need him to do and either he’s sulking and unwilling to do it, or he’s incapable of it.

Time for a change of scenery. No hard feelings, sometimes players need to hear it from another coaching group to take that step.

He should sit in the press box and watch, I’d rather play 11-7.

You may be right, but reports have always been that he has worked hard to improve his game and consistently put in the time and effort to do so. That said, I don't think it is a lack of being unwilling or sulking, I'd lean more that it is a steep development curve that he has and he hasn't on the on ice opportunity to hone the skills needed. That's why I think time in the AHL where he can get key minutes and opportunities would do him a lot of good.

There’s also a stylistic problem. The game the Kings play is not meant to generate the types of opportunities that a player like Kaliyev requires to produce 5 on 5.

Kaliyev’s game requires others on his line to set him up to finish. That’s why when he was at this best it came on the PP. Half of his career goals have come on the PP. He can’t generate those chances on his own.

Now I don’t have a problem with a PP specialist but the organization does because they need a certain type of player for their preferred 5 on 5 style. Kaliyev is a little too slow and too risky with the puck on his stick.

I’m not ready to cut bait on the kid just yet but if he’s not going to get PP time there’s no point in playing him. I do have a vision in my head of a QB/Turcotte/Kaliyev line but there’s no chance it ever gets an extended look.

I agree with you. He has two fundamental problems at the moment: 1) He doesn't seem comfortable with the puck on his stick, or carrying the puck, which leaves him unable to create his own opportunities 2) He doesn't do much / provide much value without the puck which also leads to a lack of forcing turnovers to create opportunities. I know he has a good shot, but it's hard to see him ever being a 30 goal scorer or providing enough value on offense to allow him to avoid strengthening his defensive skills. I think a lot of that will come with time and experience, though, as he does not appear to lack effort. I still see him as a player in the mold of Ryan Smyth who got much more multi-dimensional during his later years but started solely as a PP specialist. As you mentioned, however, that really doesn't work for the Kings.

I'd hate to give up on him so early, though, considering he has very little trade value at the moment and still hold a good deal of potential.

 

[Helvetica]

Credit to him for doing the things kings asked him to do to become an everyday player. He did put in that work. But at the end of the day, his thing is scoring. So, if you cant do that, why would any team continue to play him? And this is exactly the position many players find themselves, and exactly why the kings ask players to round out their game. It is very hard to score in this league. The guys that can do it regularly are special. We've heard the kings talk about it. When your A game isn't working, what do you have to fall back on? And right now, he doesn't really have anything to fall back on.

And it's unfortunate for everyone, because im sure the kings would love to give him the time he needs to get through this rut and start scoring again. But you cant afford to do that when you're trying to win games and secure a playoff spot. If his B game was JAD level, he'd be playing right now, but it's not. He's slower. Less tenacious. And struggles to win battles. Hell, he's even struggling to get open.

 

[DarkLeftHand]

I disagree.

At this point, he is what he is. Can he change? Sure, but I think the coaches have drilled into him what they need him to do and either he’s sulking and unwilling to do it, or he’s incapable of it.

Time for a change of scenery. No hard feelings, sometimes players need to hear it from another coaching group to take that step.

He should sit in the press box and watch, I’d rather play 11-7.

Or try Fagemo again. Is there some point in the season where clubs can freely bring up players, and send them back down to the AHL without them having.m to clear waivers?

 

[jammer06]

Or try Fagemo again. Is there some point in the season where clubs can freely bring up players, and send them back down to the AHL without them having.m to clear waivers?

I'm not begrudging Fagemo his shot at sticking in the NHL, but they better not "try" him at this stage of the season. Looking at the schedule they're about to be on the verge of out of the playoffs. At this point if they call him up he better be a part of the plan. Anything else reeks of desperation.

 

[DarkLeftHand]

I'm not begrudging Fagemo his shot at sticking in the NHL, but they better not "try" him at this stage of the season. Looking at the schedule they're about to be on the verge of out of the playoffs. At this point if they call him up he better be a part of the plan. Anything else reeks of desperation.

I am definitely not suggesting we shoehorn him into the lineup. He’s a right shot, PP goal scorer, though. Two things the Kings sorely lack this season. You are certainly correct, however, it’s not the time to be grasping at straws. If he cannot keep up with the pace, he can watch from the bench or the press box, same as Kaliyev.

 

[JC6388LAKings]

I'm still not in favor of Arty being in the Kings roster and I said it before that Blake should waive him as his trade value is too low at this point. If no team is willing to claim him, then Arty should definitely be sent back down to Ontario and let Fagemo or another Reign forward like Doty or Hodgson take his place. Unfortunately, that's up to Blake to decide and he's becoming as stubborn as the Walrus TMac is in terms of roster management.

 

[Surf Nutz]

I doubt he would make it through waivers.
Someone would take a flyer on his shot and put him in a position to succeed.
He played some of his most solid overall hockey when McLlamhand iced him after scratches.
He was then scratched again much to my chagrin, probably because he didn't score in limited minutes.
He seemed confused and demoralized in subsequent games he played.
Clean slate with Hiller, to push the right buttons with him.
His potential upside still makes him more valuable than JAD.
We could acquire a JAD any time there is cap space, A JAD with other skills on top of being a JAD.

 

[Hipcheck]

I disagree.

At this point, he is what he is. Can he change? Sure, but I think the coaches have drilled into him what they need him to do and either he’s sulking and unwilling to do it, or he’s incapable of it.

Time for a change of scenery. No hard feelings, sometimes players need to hear it from another coaching group to take that step.

He should sit in the press box and watch, I’d rather play 11-7.

I actually think he’s incapable…but this a knock on the team- drafting a player and not allowing him to play to his strengths- actually playing him in roles he is clearly not suited for and then shocked when he doesn’t develop.

It’s like throwing an undersized European on the fourth line and asking them to playing a hard checking game.

 

[kingnut]

I was really hoping he would have been traded after last season when he might have still had some value. I posted that opinion all summer. Now the rest of the league knows how terrible he is and the Kings will get nothing for him.

Agree, as others have pointed out, assets dying on the vine... or lost to waivers

Have not looked at other teams for their waivers but the kings lost assets to waivers that maybe could have been moved earlier, to your point

 

[Clif]

Agree, as others have pointed out, assets dying on the vine... or lost to waivers

Have not looked at other teams for their waivers but the kings lost assets to waivers that maybe could have been moved earlier, to your point

Appreciate having to “know what you have” in a player, but gotta project better when viewing players as tradable assets. Too often they sit on these guys to the point that they’re exposed as not being good enough for the big club. There’s risk involved in trading prospects, but if you keep waiting too long you fold every time.

Madden was highly regarded coming out of VAN. Doubt he’s worth much now. That’s a lot of games in the A largely healthy without a sniff of the NHL.

I worry a guy like Chromiak is next, who otherwise is still in a window of uncertainty that gives him possible value.

 

[santiclaws]

Losing formerly highly-valued assets for nothing happens to every club. Predicting how a prospect will develop - or not - is an inexact business at best.

 

[Clif]

Losing formerly highly-valued assets for nothing happens to every club. Predicting how a prospect will develop - or not - is an inexact business at best.

Yes, and why the inexactness means trading prospects is a gamble, though often a necessary one when making serious trades. Outside of trading Faber for Fiala, what prospect has Blake traded in an impact move after several years where the Kings were lauded as having the best prospect pool in the league? Can maybe add Grans to help dump Cal, but that’s a bit more cleanup duty than moving forward.

 

[symbology]

Appreciate having to “know what you have” in a player, but gotta project better when viewing players as tradable assets. Too often they sit on these guys to the point that they’re exposed as not being good enough for the big club. There’s risk involved in trading prospects, but if you keep waiting too long you fold every time.

Madden was highly regarded coming out of VAN. Doubt he’s worth much now. That’s a lot of games in the A largely healthy without a sniff of the NHL.

I worry a guy like Chromiak is next, who otherwise is still in a window of uncertainty that gives him possible value.

I think people are mistaken, just a bit.... on Madden. He has always been a small skilled guy with pedigree, but it was questionable if he would make it in the NHL. Had his name not been Madden there would not have been as much hype. Also, Vancouver traded the guy, so there is that. IMO, of course.

 

[DryKing]

I think people are mistaken, just a bit.... on Madden. He has always been a small skilled guy with pedigree, but it was questionable if he would make it in the NHL. Had his name not been Madden there would not have been as much hype. Also, Vancouver traded the guy, so there is that. IMO, of course.

There were questions about his size but not many questioned whether or not he'd make the NHL. Most capped his ceiling at middle six center who can play a complete 2-way game. There was definitely a lot of hype surrounding him.

Here are a couple scouting report quotes:

“He’s blazing fast on skates and moves with amazing agility, versatility and explosiveness. He has a great mind for the game, at which he excels both on offense and defense, and really takes charge of matters when he’s out there. A true leader at age 18.” –Kevin Wickersham/Dobber Prospects

“Tough, speedy pivot with NHL bloodlines who is always looking to attack but does so in a controlled and intelligent manner. Madden can stickhandle his way around just about anything and anyone — his agility and directional changes devastate slower defenders. There aren’t many draft-eligible prospects who know how to use their speed to expand the ice surface during tight-checking affairs, but Madden absolutely is one of them. He has to be an enigma to opposing coaches because he’s as dangerous taking the puck wide as he is in a direct route to the net — Madden has very good vision and his centering feeds rarely appear forced or illogical. When the game slows down, he’ll get his nose dirty in the corners and fight for real estate in front of the net — something he probably picked up from his father John, who was one of the NHL’s top defensive forwards and was a three-time Stanley Cup winner.” –Steve Kournianos/The Draft Analyst

 

[Clif]

I think people are mistaken, just a bit.... on Madden. He has always been a small skilled guy with pedigree, but it was questionable if he would make it in the NHL. Had his name not been Madden there would not have been as much hype. Also, Vancouver traded the guy, so there is that. IMO, of course.

VAN traded him yeah but they also got a 30-goal scorer in return. Of course the guy trading that 30-goal scorer was Blake, so take that as you will.

But he was over hyped and I am just not sure blaming the Kings org on his current development status is totally fair.

EDIT: just to be clear, I don’t blame the Kings for not developing Madden. I just blame them for not flipping him a year or two ago when there was less of a book on him potentially being a career AHL’r.

Chromiak is also undersized and inconsistent and I feel like he could end up in the same situation unless they move him sooner. For what and with whom no idea but holding onto these kids too long isn’t always about development, it’s about selling when you can.

 

[symbology]

There were questions about his size but not many questioned whether or not he'd make the NHL. Most capped his ceiling at middle six center who can play a complete 2-way game. There was definitely a lot of hype surrounding him.

Here are a couple scouting report quotes:

“He’s blazing fast on skates and moves with amazing agility, versatility and explosiveness. He has a great mind for the game, at which he excels both on offense and defense, and really takes charge of matters when he’s out there. A true leader at age 18.” –Kevin Wickersham/Dobber Prospects

“Tough, speedy pivot with NHL bloodlines who is always looking to attack but does so in a controlled and intelligent manner. Madden can stickhandle his way around just about anything and anyone — his agility and directional changes devastate slower defenders. There aren’t many draft-eligible prospects who know how to use their speed to expand the ice surface during tight-checking affairs, but Madden absolutely is one of them. He has to be an enigma to opposing coaches because he’s as dangerous taking the puck wide as he is in a direct route to the net — Madden has very good vision and his centering feeds rarely appear forced or illogical. When the game slows down, he’ll get his nose dirty in the corners and fight for real estate in front of the net — something he probably picked up from his father John, who was one of the NHL’s top defensive forwards and was a three-time Stanley Cup winner.” –Steve Kournianos/The Draft Analyst

I get it, many of the kids are pumped up. What you posted here sounds like someone that should have gone in the 1st round, not the 3rd. I liked and like the kid. But he was over hyped and I am just not sure blaming the Kings org on his current development status is totally fair.

 

[symbology]

VAN traded him yeah but they also got a 30-goal scorer in return. Of course the guy trading that 30-goal scorer was Blake, so take that as you will.

Van traded a 2nd round pick, Madden, a 4th and Tim Nobody. At the time of the trade it was 4 years past TT's 31 goal season. Another question would be why the decline by Toffoli when on the Kings, only to bounce back once he moved on.

 

[Sevenhole]

I disagree.

At this point, he is what he is. Can he change? Sure, but I think the coaches have drilled into him what they need him to do and either he’s sulking and unwilling to do it, or he’s incapable of it.

Time for a change of scenery. No hard feelings, sometimes players need to hear it from another coaching group to take that step.

He should sit in the press box and watch, I’d rather play 11-7.

Agree, He appears to be one of those players that you move and he becomes what he should have been here. Oh well that’s hockey. No use crying two years from now if he’s successful some where else. He needs to go

 

[Clif]

Van traded a 2nd round pick, Madden, a 4th and Tim Nobody. At the time of the trade it was 4 years past TT's 31 goal season. Another question would be why the decline by Toffoli when on the Kings, only to bounce back once he moved on.

Okay, I appreciate the way these discussions branch into new directions and I agree it’ll always be a question why Tyler decided not to take better ownership of his career here. Kings drafted him, he won a Cup young, was well loved in the room and by the fans, his wife even worked for the Dodgers and he was great friends with Justin Turner. He had everything. Now he’s on his sixth team despite returning to form. It’s a mystery.

But, point was Madden had value when he was traded and had value for a while now but wait too long and that diminishes. He’s just an example. There are unfortunately many others I could have chosen from under Blake.