Marner Watch

[05/29/93]

I find myself still wondering about the 2013 season and playoff run. In theory the lock out shortened regular season should’ve played right into their hands perfectly but I don’t think that 2013 squad ever found their legs.

And I’ll never understand why Lombardi didn’t try to add another winger at the deadline. Instead he paid through the nose for Robyn Regehr. Classic Dean.

By the time they got to the Blackhawks in the WCF, they were too banged up. Nobody was beating Chicago that year, and the Kings did very well to get that far.

 

[Statue4Deano]

Well that bodes well for everyone else waiting for July 1st to come.
The 4 vs 7 year deal is interesting. Is that to ensure he doesn't get locked in with a team he sours on, or if he stays healthy and progresses his game, he can really cash in at 32 with another 4 year contract ...

The 2nd part.

If that’s true I wonder if a team could get really creative and offer him a opt out (mutual termination) after 4 years. It’s never been done in the NHL but it happens in MLB/NBA all the time.

The problem is a contract can’t be mutually terminated until the player passes through unconditional waivers. Would a team claim Marner if he’s on unconditional waivers? No player has ever been claimed on unconditional waivers.

 

[santiclaws]

The 2nd part.

If that’s true I wonder if a team could get really creative and offer him a opt out (mutual termination) after 4 years. It’s never been done in the NHL but it happens in MLB/NBA all the time.

The problem is a contract can’t be mutually terminated until the player passes through unconditional waivers. Would a team claim Marner if he’s on unconditional waivers? No player has ever been claimed on unconditional waivers.

I don't know that the CBA allows opt-out clauses. And that's not a mutual termination, that's a one-party termination by definition, even if both parties have the opt-out option.

 

[McSorleyFan]

The 2nd part.

If that’s true I wonder if a team could get really creative and offer him a opt out (mutual termination) after 4 years. It’s never been done in the NHL but it happens in MLB/NBA all the time.

The problem is a contract can’t be mutually terminated until the player passes through unconditional waivers. Would a team claim Marner if he’s on unconditional waivers? No player has ever been claimed on unconditional waivers.

Did a bit of digging on this. Interesting ...

• No "mutual opt-outs" mid-contract
  NHL Standard Player Contracts (SPCs) are binding unless specific clauses (e.g., buyouts, terminations, or performance-based opt-outs in rare entry-level deals) are written in. There’s no standard mechanism for a mutual opt-out like in some other leagues (e.g., NBA).
• Contract Termination (Unconditional Waivers)
  A team and player can mutually agree to terminate a contract, but:
  
  • The player must clear unconditional waivers.
  • Once terminated, the player becomes an unrestricted free agent.
  • The player cannot re-sign with the same team during that same season (until July 1) under CBA rules (Article 13.23 of the NHL CBA), to prevent cap circumvention.
• Buyouts (Offseason Only)
  
  • Teams can buy out a contract during a specified offseason window.
  • Comes with cap penalties.
  • Player becomes a free agent, but same-team re-signing is restricted by timing and rules.

 

[symbology]

All good points.

I’m higher on signing Marner than most simply because players of his caliber are almost never available in free agency and when they are LA is never their preferred destination.

I believe it’s easier and cheaper to find the other complimentary pieces than find those extremely necessary productive players like Marner (Jeff Carter/Marian Gaborik). I love Kempe and most nights I like Fiala but neither one of those two are on the level of Marner. Adding Marner raises the ceiling on the roster.

Yeah, I am kind of the same way. Want a top tier player, go get him. If they get him, okay we will see how that changes things. If they do not get him, we will still see how this team changes.

 

[symbology]

If this has not been posted yet. Good history on Marner's history with the Leafs.

 

[orpheus]

I sometimes miss the non cap era when yearly rates were crazy for top UFA, but they didn't always have to get end of career terms.

20 mil, but only 3 years! Let's go!

 

[hokiecat]

The resiliency of the 2014 team is almost completely forgotten beyond coming back from 0-3 vs. the Sharks.

True story:
I was out for a walk at lunch when we were down 3-0 and I saw Dean walking outside TSC, looking glum, and smoking. I never knew the dude smoked. I asked him if he followed the America's Cup. He said he didn't. I told him that the USA Team was down 1-8 and had to win 8 straight to take the title. All the Kings needed to was win 4 straight which would be half as difficult. He smiled a little bit and told me "thanks buddy" and then resumed his walk.
The rest is history.

 

[symbology]

True story:
I was out for a walk at lunch when we were down 3-0 and I saw Dean walking outside TSC, looking glum, and smoking. I never knew the dude smoked. I asked him if he followed the America's Cup. He said he didn't. I told him that the USA Team was down 1-8 and had to win 8 straight to take the title. All the Kings needed to was win 4 straight which would be half as difficult. He smiled a little bit and told me "thanks buddy" and then resumed his walk.
The rest is history.

That year I recalled a skid the Kings had back in December. The team just kind of fell a part for 3-4 games. I saw the first 3 games agains the Sharks as the same weird slump. I was confident that they would come back and win that series. I remember telling my buddy, I am not worried. Of course I was not 100% sure they were going to pull it off. I just had this feeling that it was the Kings that were losing those games and not the Sharks that were winning them.

The good ol' Cup days.

 

[Earl]

Possible, all the fan heat was pointed at Dubois. As for the play on the ice at the time it made the most sense to me that it was Roy. Forwards had to cover for him after he would flee the zone. On more than one occasion Gavy was left in the zone all by himself with nowhere to go with the pass. On some of these plays Roy was the player furthest down the ice. Just the reasons for me to say Roy, but could have been Dubois.

I just always assumed Dubois because he was so pretty much universally unliked by the team on and off the ice for his uninspired play but I suppose it could be Roy as well for wanting to have that big year before UFA.

 

[symbology]

I just always assumed Dubois because he was so pretty much universally unliked by the team on and off the ice for his uninspired play but I suppose it could be Roy as well for wanting to have that big year before UFA.

I just went back and listened to his comment. He was not calling out a single player, he said "some guys".

 

[Ranma]

I think of Mitch Marner as being somewhat similar to Jeff Carter for the Kings. IIRC, wasn't Carter thought to be unreliable and immature despite his size and skill prior to joining the Kings? They way I see it, we acquire Marner who is an elite talent, which is hard to come by, and then surround him with the winning players like Justin Williams and Mike Richards similar to what Deano did with Carter.

I'm not saying there aren't concerns with Marner since he has a meddling agent and father much like Jack Johnson did with his father, but Marner seems to actually care about doing what it takes to win. His postseason performance and emotional meltdowns seem to also stem from such caring. Maybe the dude cares "too much" in putting so much on himself. Or maybe he's also an a-hole that blames his teammates for not doing enough to support him. The point is acquiring Marner as a free agent is one huge move but the organization would need to do more in finding the right mix to get the most out of him including finding teammates that will elevate him by showing and guiding him towards channeling his emotions into something productive by playing the right way.

 

[DryKing]

I think of Mitch Marner as being somewhat similar to Jeff Carter for the Kings. IIRC, wasn't Carter thougth to be unreliable and immature despite his size and skill prior to joining the Kings? They way I see it, we acquire Marner who is an elite talent, which is hard to come by, and then surround him with the winning players like Justin Williams and Mike Richards similar to what Deano did with Carter.

I'm not saying there aren't concerns with Marner since he has a meddling agent and father much like Jack Johnson did with his father, but Marner seems to actually care about doing what it takes to win. His postseason performance and emotional meltdowns seem to also stem from such caring. Maybe the dude cares "too much" in putting so much on himself. Or maybe he's also an a-hole that blames his teammates for not doing enough to support him. The point is acquiring Marner as a free agent is one huge move but the organization would need to do more in finding the right mix to get the most out of him including finding teammates that will elevate him by showing and guiding him towards channeling his emotions into something productive by playing the right way.

You bring up a good point. When the Kings first acquired Richards I was sad as Carter was also on the table at the time, and brought, in my opinion, more of what was needed. Dean, however, prioritized leadership and, in the end, it worked out. That said, the scoring talent was still needed, which led to Carter later being acquired (on a steal of a trade).

The point is, you have leaders within the team and then you have elite talent - sometimes they overlap but in most cases that is rare. What Toronto seems to lack is in the realm of leadership that will push them forward and help them show up and win game 7's, but realistically so do the Kings. Even if we wait a year and somehow acquire McDavid (which is a serious longshot) that doesn't really fill the leadership void. What Holland will hopefully do is bring in both elite talent, and leaders (which likely won't be elite talent) that can helm the Kings through a dog fight of a series.

 

[Statue4Deano]

You bring up a good point. When the Kings first acquired Richards I was sad as Carter was also on the table at the time, and brought, in my opinion, more of what was needed. Dean, however, prioritized leadership and, in the end, it worked out. That said, the scoring talent was still needed, which led to Carter later being acquired (on a steal of a trade).

The point is, you have leaders within the team and then you have elite talent - sometimes they overlap but in most cases that is rare. What Toronto seems to lack is in the realm of leadership that will push them forward and help them show up and win game 7's, but realistically so do the Kings. Even if we wait a year and somehow acquire McDavid (which is a serious longshot) that doesn't really fill the leadership void. What Holland will hopefully do is bring in both elite talent, and leaders (which likely won't be elite talent) that can helm the Kings through a dog fight of a series.

100% agree. Look at the 2012 rosters and you see 10 guys who played integral parts on teams who made Cup runs or won the Cup. Experience matters. Richards and Carter were the final pieces but there were a dozen other pieces that supported Richards and Carter. And that doesn’t even mention the home grown core of Kopi, Brown, Drew and Quick. 3 sure fire Hall of Fame players.

If the Kings sign Marner he’s still just one piece of the puzzle. He’s a very big piece but Holland still needs to fill out the roster with players who can be those connecting pieces.

I look at Edmonton and Florida and I just don’t see any way past those teams without a significant talent infusion to this roster. Yes size and speed would be nice too but superstar offensive talent is the hardest thing in the hockey world to find. Marner has superstar talent.

 

[Johnnysuede71]

100% agree. Look at the 2012 rosters and you see 10 guys who played integral parts on teams who made Cup runs or won the Cup. Experience matters. Richards and Carter were the final pieces but there were a dozen other pieces that supported Richards and Carter. And that doesn’t even mention the home grown core of Kopi, Brown, Drew and Quick. 3 sure fire Hall of Fame players.

If the Kings sign Marner he’s still just one piece of the puzzle. He’s a very big piece but Holland still needs to fill out the roster with players who can be those connecting pieces.

I look at Edmonton and Florida and I just don’t see any way past those teams without a significant talent infusion to this roster. Yes size and speed would be nice too but superstar offensive talent is the hardest thing in the hockey world to find. Marner has superstar talent.

Interesting. I have no problem with the notion of having a 'superstar' on the team being a good thing but by your own assessment you said the Kings cup teams had no such thing and you were correct. Jeff Carter was NOT a superstar. He added a top 6 scoring threat and played the style Lombardi was looking for. He broke 80 points in his career ONCE and averaged 60 points a season.

By that same rational....who is the 'superstar' on the current Panthers back-to-back Stanley cup roster? Yeah you have some great talent and a few 80 point scorers but would you call Reinhart or Barkov 'elite'?

Both the Kings of the 2000 teens and the Florida Panthers used remarkably similar recipes to win cups and there wasn't a 'superstar' in sight. Great system...great goaltending...great role players on both offense and defense.

(Edmonton has TWO 'Superstars' btw. No cups. Now it CAN be done (see Tampa Bay) but I think we can all agree Vasilevskiy stood on his HEAD in both those runs as his ridiculous numbers indicate.)

Edit: Reinhart did indeed have a single ELITE season...but I still would hesitate to call him a 'Superstar' in the same vein as McDrai. You get my point.

 

[Statue4Deano]

Interesting. I have no problem with the notion of having a 'superstar' on the team being a good thing but by your own assessment you said the Kings cup teams had no such thing and you were correct. Jeff Carter was NOT a superstar. He added a top 6 scoring threat and played the style Lombardi was looking for. He broke 80 points in his career ONCE and averaged 60 points a season.

By that same rational....who is the 'superstar' on the current Panthers back-to-back Stanley cup roster? Yeah you have some great talent and a few 80 point scorers but would you call Reinhart or Barkov 'elite'?

Both the Kings of the 2000 teens and the Florida Panthers used remarkably similar recipes to win cups and there wasn't a 'superstar' in sight. Great system...great goaltending...great role players on both offense and defense.

(Edmonton has TWO 'Superstars' btw. No cups. Now it CAN be done (see Tampa Bay) but I think we can all agree Vasilevskiy stood on his HEAD in both those runs as his ridiculous numbers indicate.)

Edit: Reinhart did indeed have a single ELITE season...but I still would hesitate to call him a 'Superstar' in the same vein as McDrai. You get my point.

Barkov (96 point season and 3 Selkes) and Tkachuk (two 100 point seasons) are superstar level talents. Bennett and Reinhart are good enough to play for Canada’s national team. That’s pretty special. Florida has more than enough superstar level talent. Their guys just so happen to buy in to the program and are happy to fit into more of a role player slot. That’s rare.

Let’s not forget that Jeff Carter had enough superstar goal scoring talent to play for Team Canada at the 2014 Olympics. Carter has the 4th most career goals of anyone drafted in the legendary 2003 Entry draft. He was one of the greatest goal scorers of his generation. And so was Marian Gaborik. Lombardi chose those two guys because they had elite skill sets and they fit the role player slots the team needed even if they weren’t complete players. That’s how I see Marner. Elite scorer, elite wing defender but will never be the heart and soul of the team. He’s a vital piece.

 

[DryKing]

Barkov (96 point season and 3 Selkes) and Tkachuk (two 100 point seasons) are superstar level talents. Bennett and Reinhart are good enough to play for Canada’s national team. That’s pretty special. Florida has more than enough superstar level talent. Their guys just so happen to buy in to the program and are happy to fit into more of a role player slot. That’s rare.

Let’s not forget that Jeff Carter had enough superstar goal scoring talent to play for Team Canada at the 2014 Olympics. Carter has the 4th most career goals of anyone drafted in the legendary 2003 Entry draft. He was one of the greatest goal scorers of his generation. And so was Marian Gaborik. Lombardi chose those two guys because they had elite skill sets and they fit the role player slots the team needed even if they weren’t complete players. That’s how I see Marner. Elite scorer, elite wing defender but will never be the heart and soul of the team. He’s a vital piece.

Not to mention Bobs who was a Vezina finalist last season, and previous to that a Vezina winner and Hart Finalist. I'd say that falls within superstar status.

During the Kings run, Quick was a Vezina finalist (2012) and Kopi was a Selke finalist (2014). The definitely won more by committee than what we see with many teams, but while they may not have gotten the media hype and attention they were high end stars, if not superstars.

 

[Statue4Deano]

Not to mention Bobs who was a Vezina finalist last season, and previous to that a Vezina winner and Hart Finalist. I'd say that falls within superstar status.

During the Kings run, Quick was a Vezina finalist (2012) and Kopi was a Selke finalist (2014). The definitely won more by committee than what we see with many teams, but while they may not have gotten the media hype and attention they were high end stars, if not superstars.

Bob definitely can be added to the superstar list. 2 Vezinas 2 Cups and 429 career wins makes him a lock for the HOF.

 

[Johnnysuede71]

Not to mention Bobs who was a Vezina finalist last season, and previous to that a Vezina winner and Hart Finalist. I'd say that falls within superstar status.

During the Kings run, Quick was a Vezina finalist (2012) and Kopi was a Selke finalist (2014). The definitely won more by committee than what we see with many teams, but while they may not have gotten the media hype and attention they were high end stars, if not superstars.

I suppose it just depends on the definition of 'superstar'. To me it's consistency over time. (i.e. 100 point seasons and deep playoff runs etc.) No arguing both goalies in this conversation were/are superstars. It's why I made sure to bring it up.

PS- plenty of non 'superstar' caliber players are selected to National teams.

 

[Earl]

Bob definitely can be added to the superstar list. 2 Vezinas 2 Cups and 429 career wins makes him a lock for the HOF.

What I love about Bob is the team almost gave up on him drafting Spencer Knight who was the heir apparent at one point now plying his trade in Chicago. That has to make Bob feel good that his replacement was jettisoned.