Superman v Batman/DC movies

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I can't believe no one understands why so many people didn't like Suicide Squad. There's ZERO self-awareness happening.

I was totally entertained by it and loved a lot of the characters, but overall it is not a good movie. No one dislikes Suicide Squad because they're prepared to hate any DC movie. People dislike it because it's a hot mess.
 
I was thinking that this generation of movie critics might be a bunch of hipsters who do go out of their way to dislike something. Maybe. But I did see BvS and agreed with the negative reviews of that movie. It's not simply that the Suicide Squad critics are just ripping on the movie, but making specific points for why it didn't work.

Dunno, if I do watch Suicide Squad and really don't like it, I am blaming Jerseydevil because I can. mhihi: ;)
 
Speaking of Suicide Squad, I remember seeing this comic in comic stores back in the day. It's a pretty cool image in my opinion. I should've bought it when I had a chance, haha. It's probably worth something now.

suicide-squad11.jpg
 
orpheus said:
Speaking of Suicide Squad, I remember seeing this comic in comic stores back in the day. It's a pretty cool image in my opinion. I should've bought it when I had a chance, haha. It's probably worth something now.

suicide-squad11.jpg
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No, I mean...maybe now, but the comic was CONSTANTLY fighting cancellation. Strongly recommend picking up the TPB of the main part of the run. It's a great story and you can see what I'm on about. Should be fairly cheapish.
 
mmmcammy said:
I can't believe no one understands why so many people didn't like Suicide Squad. There's ZERO self-awareness happening.

I was totally entertained by it and loved a lot of the characters, but overall it is not a good movie. No one dislikes Suicide Squad because they're prepared to hate any DC movie. People dislike it because it's a hot mess.
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while I agree with you completely, I do think there is a special venom that is present in a LOT of the reviews. Granted...DC/WB needs to up their game and defy the critics to criticize a great movie. But look at Ant Man. A trite, cookie cutter flick that granted, was entertaining, but it got mostly good reviews in my opinion, due to the body of work that Marvel has put out. The last movie to really get savaged in the press was Iron Man 2...they chased Johnny Favs out of the Marvel Universe for f's sake. So, DC's mixed results and the choice of Zack Snyder as their de facto Fiege has put them in a hole to start with. They can turn it around...but I do not think the playing field is level at this point.
 
Well, I enjoyed it. I thought it was a lot of fun. Not without its problems (and one large one to me), but it didn't take away from me smiling through most of it. Since when did cheese and silly become synonymous with garbage? Never mind, I'm gonna go watch my new copy of Buckaroo Banzai.
 
'Suicide Squad' is officially critic-proof
http://www.hitfix.com/the-dartboard/suicide-squad-is-officially-critic-proof

I’ll accept ‘Man of Steel 2’ if you reboot Superman in ‘Justice League’
Read more at http://www.hitfix.com/harpy/ill-acc...uperman-in-justice-league#u1QvZPDAfEXIJeCD.99

Gal Gadot's reaction to the 'Wonder Woman' trailer at SDCC is so cute
Read more at http://www.hitfix.com/harpy/gal-gad...railer-at-sdcc-is-so-cute#23pItGRXu8UbzYQM.99

As far as the perceived 'body of work' bias that I spoke of a few posts up, I think that Wonder Woman, directed by Patty Jenkins, stands to be the first DC flick to break the trend. With all the kerfuffle re: GalBusters, I can see critics tripping over themselves to NOT condemn this movie. Even the casual fans seem to be ready to embrace this. I truly hope it's a good movie and perhaps WB/DC can turn things around.
 
jerseydevil said:
As far as the perceived 'body of work' bias that I spoke of a few posts up, I think that Wonder Woman, directed by Patty Jenkins, stands to be the first DC flick to break the trend. With all the kerfuffle re: GalBusters, I can see critics tripping over themselves to NOT condemn this movie. Even the casual fans seem to be ready to embrace this. I truly hope it's a good movie and perhaps WB/DC can turn things around.
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Maybe it's not so much a conspiracy to either blindly hate DC or to artificially inflate a female-led project to be trendy.

Maybe it's just casual fans wanting to see something other than a rainy nighttime broodfest. Especially when it involves a character who usually isn't associated with working at night and brooding.




Meanwhile, Marvel movies are like Pixar movies. They've established a level of quality and consistency that tends to earn some forgiveness, or at least forgetfulness, when it comes to their lows. And when they hit, they it further reinforces the perception.

As for Ant-Man specifically, it was certainly a lighter movie, but it was different even within the Marvel Universe and it was seemingly made to play into those differences. So it was refreshing, aside from still being a decent movie.


So, look at Suicide Squad. People are giving it credit for just not being as depressing as the Superman movies, which are so far the only DC movies out there. Even a lot of the people saying that they liked it admit that it was just fun, not necessarily a great film. So, three movies, none of which are great, but one of which may be enjoyable to a wider audience. No, not a lot of good will there.
 
darby said:
Maybe it's not so much a conspiracy to either blindly hate DC or to artificially inflate a female-led project to be trendy.

Maybe it's just casual fans wanting to see something other than a rainy nighttime broodfest. Especially when it involves a character who usually isn't associated with working at night and brooding.




Meanwhile, Marvel movies are like Pixar movies. They've established a level of quality and consistency that tends to earn some forgiveness, or at least forgetfulness, when it comes to their lows. And when they hit, they it further reinforces the perception.

As for Ant-Man specifically, it was certainly a lighter movie, but it was different even within the Marvel Universe and it was seemingly made to play into those differences. So it was refreshing, aside from still being a decent movie.


So, look at Suicide Squad. People are giving it credit for just not being as depressing as the Superman movies, which are so far the only DC movies out there. Even a lot of the people saying that they liked it admit that it was just fun, not necessarily a great film. So, three movies, none of which are great, but one of which may be enjoyable to a wider audience. No, not a lot of good will there.
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Some good points...and I think, had it not been such a mess, there was a lot of goodwill towards Suicide Squad going in. Squandered by studio interference...go back up and look at the list of cuts. Ayer's vision was definitely darker, keeping in line with the source material. BUT, this point you make about fan perception, and wanting more upbeat fare, caused Warner Brothers to compromise the movie based almost entirely on the negative reaction to B VS S. And that compromise is what made the movie a mess. Would the original cut have fared much better. Who knows. Almost certainly there would have been detractors moaning about the dark themes, but like I said earlier...that is what makes DC different than Marvel. Their best stuff is psychologically 'heavier' than Marvel's HEROIC but lightweight fare. I still think that making more 'adult' movies is where DC/WB should focus.

BTW, if you don't think the critics will be hesitant to be harsh towards a female driven superhero flick...you haven't been paying attention.
 
jerseydevil said:
BTW, if you don't think the critics will be hesitant to be harsh towards a female driven superhero flick...you haven't been paying attention.
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I didn't say what the critics would do either way. I was just speaking to your comment as far as common fans goes:

jerseydevil said:
I can see critics tripping over themselves to NOT condemn this movie. Even the casual fans seem to be ready to embrace this.
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Actually, you mentioned the critics and said they could bend over backwards to approve.




In any case, critics aside:

I happen to consider myself a "casual fan" of the superhero genre. I never read comics as a kid, though I tend to be more informed more than just a random shlub off the street just by paying attention to what's going on and doing a little light research.

But you say "Batman," I think of red and black skies and building silhouettes with a pair of white eyes in the shadows. A brooding, serious rich guy with issues dressing as a bat and beating the s*** outta street criminals while outsmarting the big bads with his wits and gadgets. For the most part, I got that outta Nolan and Burton. I'm good with those films and I paid to see them.

You say "Superman," I think of sky blue panels filled with a strong dude flying around in a blue suit and red cape. Truth, justice, and the American way. Big, blue, Kansas-bred boyscout. Compare that to the last two Snyder movies (of which I have only seen one, on cable).

Now, you say "Wonder Woman," and I think of a brunette in red, blue, and gold armor with bracelets and a lasso from some Greek island living in America. She's strong and fights for the right thing according to her warrior upbringing. Then I see the trailer and that poster, and I get the idea that I'm gonna get what I had in mind. So I'm in.



Come to think of it, one of the reasons I am probably so inclined to favor the marvel stuff is not only the fact that they turn out a reliably decent product, but that I am fairly unfamiliar with a good chunk of the characters. So those movies - Guardians of the Galaxy, Ant-Man, Dr. Strange - and a bunch of those characters - Black Widow, Hawkeye, Scarlet Witch, Vision - all have the benefit of starting with a clean slate with me. I have no major preconceptions going in, so they can't run counter to anything. But when they show up, they are nestled into the world of the other existing characters fairly well, so it's easy to just go with them as presented.
 
darby said:
I didn't say what the critics would do either way. I was just speaking to your comment as far as common fans goes:


Actually, you mentioned the critics and said they could bend over backwards to approve.




In any case, critics aside:

I happen to consider myself a "casual fan" of the superhero genre. I never read comics as a kid, though I tend to be more informed more than just a random shlub off the street just by paying attention to what's going on and doing a little light research.

But you say "Batman," I think of red and black skies and building silhouettes with a pair of white eyes in the shadows. A brooding, serious rich guy with issues dressing as a bat and beating the s*** outta street criminals while outsmarting the big bads with his wits and gadgets. For the most part, I got that outta Nolan and Burton. I'm good with those films and I paid to see them.

You say "Superman," I think of sky blue panels filled with a strong dude flying around in a blue suit and red cape. Truth, justice, and the American way. Big, blue, Kansas-bred boyscout. Compare that to the last two Snyder movies (of which I have only seen one, on cable).

Now, you say "Wonder Woman," and I think of a brunette in red, blue, and gold armor with bracelets and a lasso from some Greek island living in America. She's strong and fights for the right thing according to her warrior upbringing. Then I see the trailer and that poster, and I get the idea that I'm gonna get what I had in mind. So I'm in.



Come to think of it, one of the reasons I am probably so inclined to favor the marvel stuff is not only the fact that they turn out a reliably decent product, but that I am fairly unfamiliar with a good chunk of the characters. So those movies - Guardians of the Galaxy, Ant-Man, Dr. Strange - and a bunch of those characters - Black Widow, Hawkeye, Scarlet Witch, Vision - all have the benefit of starting with a clean slate with me. I have no major preconceptions going in, so they can't run counter to anything. But when they show up, they are nestled into the world of the other existing characters fairly well, so it's easy to just go with them as presented.
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That's a fine appraisal, and more or less why Marvel is winning. See, you are the audience they are going for. You bring no baggage/second guessing as far as canon goes. You aren't going to be nerdly hyper critical like your average fanboy. The only caveat to that is that Marvel runs the risk of burning out the genre. Casual fans will certainly fill the seats, until they, for whatever reason, stop doing so. And, for me, Marvel's general lack of complexity and the formulaic way they generate their movies is far more likely to burn out the genre than DC's uneven, yet individual offerings. Only time will tell.
 
Everything is formulaic, man. It's only a matter of how well you do your version of the tropes and what new thing you can bring to it.

Marvel is handling it well. DC, up to this point, has not.
 
jerseydevil said:
That's a fine appraisal, and more or less why Marvel is winning. See, you are the audience they are going for. You bring no baggage/second guessing as far as canon goes. You aren't going to be nerdly hyper critical like your average fanboy. The only caveat to that is that Marvel runs the risk of burning out the genre. Casual fans will certainly fill the seats, until they, for whatever reason, stop doing so. And, for me, Marvel's general lack of complexity and the formulaic way they generate their movies is far more likely to burn out the genre than DC's uneven, yet individual offerings. Only time will tell.
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The smart thing Marvel has done to maintain interest is to push momentum towards an end goal while rewarding audiences with quality products at every step along the way. Thus far only Iron Man 3 has felt like a missed step on that path, which likely explains the reasoning behind Wrights dismissal in Ant Man. Shane Black made a Shane Black Iron Man, not another chapter in an on-going series that frankly requires several of the same notes to be hit.

I have never cared for any of the serious Batman movies. My Batman is Adam West, who somehow managed to parody the future before it was even conceived.

Superman bores the hell out of me as a a character. Wonder Woman is, to me, the Baywatch of the superhero genre. Those impressions will be tough to negate because they were all so ingrained as a kid. Maybe folks younger than me (43) have an easier time with the more modern versions of those charachters.

But DC characters were who I associated with superheroes growing up. Spiderman in The Electric Company, and the ridiculous Bixby Hulk were the only Marvel heroes I remember from my childhood, and I never really cared for those two either. Marvel seemed like an also ran. I never bought or read comics.

The current DC movies just don't look like things I want to invest in. The trailers, the commercials, the whole marketing campaign make them look just like tired, overly stylized Fast and Furious like passable dreck. Low in effort, low goals, quick cash grabs.

I enjoy the Marvel movies. Even Ultron improves with time, and I found Ant Man to be a blast. There is a joy there, a uniform feeling of happiness and wonder that was only ever really missing in the more independent Iron Man 3. I enjoy that feeling and hope it remains a staple of their works.

Guess it's the same reason why I enjoy Disneyland so much more than Magic Mountain. It's sustained quality and familiar happiness over the temporary and ultimately disposable thrills.
 
For the life of me I just can't agree with you...not that I am saying you are wrong, but I just don't see it that way. You see sustained quality and I see repetition. You see happiness and wonder, and I see formulaic film making with very little risk/reward. And as far as maintaining interest whilst pursuing a goal...at what cost? Ultron was a bad movie BECAUSE of the extended commercials for other movies within it's run time. I am not harping, or trying to start a fight...we have already done that. I just feel a need to present a counterpoint to, what I see as, unearned optimism.
I dunno...the fact that I was a DC kid probably has a LOT to do with my anti Marvel leanings...but I do think, like their comics, the end result isn't art. It's sales. I think that is the main reason why the DC films have been lesser than. Instead of stripping stuff down to a template, they actually are trying to create something. Marvel has succeeded tremendously by releasing simple movies with extreme crossover/mass appeal. I can't argue that.

And, btw. There is only one Batman.
 
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