The Avengers/Marvel movies

'Thor's' Chris Hemsworth picked a great time to denounce cultural appropriation
Read more at http://www.hitfix.com/harpy/thors-c...ce-cultural-appropriation#Xriep6W41CWtFDk3.99

Oh MARGARET!!!!!!

Ok, so 'cultural appropriation', meaning dressing as an Indian/Geisha/Eskimo/etc, when you are not of that race...is wrong.
But recasting a long established character who has always been caucasian, is ok.

Hello, double standard. Yes...I understand...it's ok to take stuff away from 'white people'. Because we have ALL been so bad. But let's freaking call a spade a Oh wait...I better not use that metaphor because I will be accused of racism.
 
It's not the first time you've banged on that drum, so it's not surprising that you would.

But each time you do, it makes me think,

raw
 
darby said:
It's not the first time you've banged on that drum, so it's not surprising that you would.

But each time you do, it makes me think,

raw
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And it's not the first time you have called me to task without really explaining how I am wrong.

These characters, like it or not...are part of my culture. So yeah. You can't have it both ways. How ridiculous is it to say that it's insensitive for someone to dress as an Indian for Halloween unless you have American Indian blood in your veins. The hypersensitivity seems to extend to every culture EXCEPT for caucasians. But please, instead of lurking and making more passive aggressive vague posts please...apparently I need enlightening.

You can check with others...occasionally I can be swayed by a good argument. I will even publicly admit it. But don't sit there and condemn me without at least trying to explain to my simple mind how I am not getting it. I realize by standing up for the evil white man I am automatically painted as a racist...yet another double standard. Just because you don't like me, doesn't make me wrong.
 
jerseydevil said:
And it's not the first time you have called me to task without really explaining how I am wrong.

These characters, like it or not...are part of my culture. So yeah. You can't have it both ways. How ridiculous is it to say that it's insensitive for someone to dress as an Indian for Halloween unless you have American Indian blood in your veins. The hypersensitivity seems to extend to every culture EXCEPT for caucasians. But please, instead of lurking and making more passive aggressive vague posts please...apparently I need enlightening.

You can check with others...occasionally I can be swayed by a good argument. I will even publicly admit it. But don't sit there and condemn me without at least trying to explain to my simple mind how I am not getting it. I realize by standing up for the evil white man I am automatically painted as a racist...yet another double standard. Just because you don't like me, doesn't make me wrong.
Click to expand...

I get the underlying logic of the double standard in a vacuum. What's good for the goose should be good for the gander. That makes sense.

The problem is, this isn't taking place in a vacuum where there are equal number of geese and ganders. In the industry under discussion, there are waaaaaaaay more ganders than geese. And when the industry is supposed to be telling stories about water fowl in general, maybe there should be a few more geese thrown in. Hell, let's add some ducks, too! Cranes, flamingos, what the f*** ever. And you know what, there will still be plenty (most actually) of ganders in the stories.


So, to get us back away from the pond, was it really that important to make sure that Baron Mordo (or whomever) was white? I know, whatever character(s) you're thinking of been around for ages and this was your childhood. But was their skin color somehow integral to their character? Their motivations? Their place in the story? I mean, Red Skull had to be a white dude because he was a high-ranking Nazi. But if they had cast Batroc as a black Frenchman, would that have been a racial catastrophe? Will it be THAT important to make sure the one chick in the upcoming Thor/Hulk movie is a blonde with blue eyes? Can't she be a Valhallan of color? I mean, the one Warrior is already Asian. Was that from the comics? Has that been a major issue in the films if it's been changed from the comics?

I don't know these characters that well, so those are honest questions. Nor do most people going to see these movies. But I can tell you that it may mean a lot to people, those cranes or flamingos, to see someone like them up on the screen. And it means something to the actors playing them. And it speaks more to the real world that we live in.



And, as far as I'm concerned, the offense taken isn't always clear. Like Tilda Swinton as The Ancient One. On the one hand, I get it. This was an Asian character and the chance to get an Asian actor in a prominent role. Then they throw a white chick in there instead, slap her in some robes, move her to Tibet, shave her head like a hari-krishna, and put her up in some ancient temple in the Himalayas. Doesn't look all that great on the surface.

But I can see where the angle might work. Do they really wanna put an Asian guy in there just to wear a fu-man-chu? Wouldn't that promote a stereotype? So you maybe re-cast away from that and it opens the doors. If The Ancient One is a title going to the wisest person in the group, then why couldn't a woman from half way around the world earn it? And when you take a job as the GM of the Yankees, you move to NY and your start wearing pinstripe ties.

The Scarlett Johansson thing, though, I dunno about so much. I don't know if what the producers are saying about the future world where the names don't go with faces that we'd traditionally think of angle might work. Maybe they set that up okay. Or maybe there's room in the story for that to happen. But for now, it looks like they needed a big, white, US name to get butts in the sets at the expense of what should have been an Asian actress. So I dunno about that one.

Oh, and Tom Cruise wasn't the last man who was a Samurai. It was the story of the final group of Samurai (plural) as led by Ken Watanabe. So it was really "The Last (group of) Samurai." But then, it was told entirely from a white dude's perspective, so maybe then we need a history check. I dunno.




Now, as far as the Hemsworth, thing -- don't blackface, man. Don't use eyeliner to make your eyes look slanty like in "Breakfast at Tiffany's". And don't wear a headdress and carry a tomahawk and whoop around the place. These are established, demeaning caricatures that people of these cultures are STILL working against. So maybe there should be a little care and sensitivity there by all people not of that race/ethnicity/orientation. Now, I don't think the guy's bad or racist. I think he made a poor decision, especially given his profile.



As for you, specifically, I generally give you credit for being well-informed about comics and movies, and you're a smart guy. The times we've met, you've been plenty nice. We disagree on a bunch of stuff, sure. But we've always been civil about it and I respect that. I do think you're a bit sensitive about what you perceive to be personal attacks, but I wouldn't say that I dislike you.

But it's because of the respect I have for your knowledge, open-mindedness, and civility that I am perplexed by your seeming lack of awareness on this issue when it comes to the much bigger picture of color on film, given that it has been a public issue in movies, TV, and comics for some time now. It seems to me a bit bigger than your (completely technically valid) logical conundrum.
 
Ok, That's more like it. When you present your points it doesn't come off as a personal issue, like the abundance of your responses to my stuff have felt like in the past. I am not one to shy away from a good argument.

That being said...



Ok, so thank you first of all, for acknowledging my point...with a caveat. And I do concede that there has to be a balancing of the books as far as diversity goes. But!!!! I don't think you can enforce quotas in art. What I constantly complain about, and maybe I did not present it clearly enough, is that it should NEVER be a simple matter of, 'let's make that character African American/a Woman/Homosexual'...simply for the sake of diversity. You actually make that point for me a little in your dissection of Dr. Strange. Secondary characters, like Baron Mordo, don't disturb me as much. They are not headlining/long established characters. I can grin and bear changes like that for the sake of argument. But look, Marvel changed the Ancient One from a stereotype to a WOMAN and got tons of grief for that. Yes, she is white...but, and this is the part of the argument that gets buried under the rug...it's Tilda Swinton. AND that casting choice was made solely to help sell tickets. It's like Nick Fury. I grew up with the Howling Commandos, and that was a rough change to take. Not because of race, but because he was ingrained in my memory as being that character. BUT!!!! Samuel L Jackson is one terrific actor. Cast by Marvel, no doubt, to bring in star power and rain cash down. So I get it. And I actually appreciate the character despite my desire to see him represented as he was in my memory. I don't think Marvel would have made that change if they didn't see the financial upside in bringing Samuel L into their franchise.


But I digress. All I am trying to say is, don't change for change. Have it make sense from an artistic standpoint. Maybe create NEW characters. If Marvel was interested in really trying to change things, how is this for an idea. Introduce a NEW character into one of their movies. Make them as diverse as you want. And support it by making a comic book that features that character. Hell, cross him over into all the comics, like they already do with Deadpool/Wolverine. Win Win.

I am only an armchair quarterback. I can only look at what I have readily available to me. But look at Boo, the Madea movie. One in a long line. And it's cleaning up. Compare that box office to 12 Years a Slave, Or Birth of a Nation, or Selma...I would say that there is no argument what people have chosen. And yet...every Oscar season we read about the dearth of diversity. You can't regulate what people like. And you can't just shoehorn diversity into movies. It's pandering. And the simple economics are that no major studio is going to spend money to lose money.

As far as 'cultural appropriation' goes...look, Halloween is a vulgar holiday. People tend to embrace broad stereotypes. But that is also something that cannot be regulated. I am a Catholic. I have seen some 'interesting' takes of the Catholic Church around this time of the year. But, do I condemn these folks to Hell...No. Cause some of them are hilarious. As far as the dressing like an Indian...it can be argued that white folks dressing as Indians is part of our culture. Look at, I dunno, every western ever. Do Native Americans still walk around in traditional garb. For the most part, no. Suppose a kid is really into NA culture. He can't dress as an Indian for Halloween? So, I guess little girls shouldn't dress as princesses, or civilians dress as Firemen...I know it's an exaggeration...but do you really trust the majority to know where the line is.

It's a dangerous era we enter into. Political Correctness has transformed into revisionist history. People are constantly looking for an angle to get offended about something and blame it on the Patriarchy/Evil White men. And as a result, you get Donald Trump and his ilk. Be careful what you wish for.

me, I am gonna do what all people should do...vote with my wallet.
 
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More importantly, he was played by an in-shape actor Ray Stephenson. Taking the part away from a fatty fatty 2x4 actor
 
That Thor movie had too many Jewish women. Psh! Natalie Portman? Kat Dennings? Who has time for them?

Thor+Captain+America+First+Avenger+2010+Comic+MNdF9LBUe7Dl.jpg


*goes off to fantasize about a non-related subject*

The whole race in comic book movies is a complicated issue that I am not really in the mood (or sober enough) to discuss. But I will say this, there was this era in comics, say, the late 60's, and early '70's, when creators said, gee, why not diversify comics with new characters. How come this hasn't happened lately? People just won't dare to sell anything new and different these days. rolleyes:

Where are the next Storms? The next Blades? The next Falcons? Oh, and Asian/Latino/Middle Eastern new characters?

AND Halloween is a Whole OTHER story and a good example of PC gone crazy. I live in a large Asian population area. Spent some time at the local mall while eating my food court dinner, haha. Asian kids dressed up as Cap (both boys & girls), Asian kids dressed up as the Hulk, one young fellow dressed up as (Ha!), Black Panther. Even an entire Asian family dressed up as Native Americans, lol. (The mother looked hot! :peep:).

All awesome, but yeah, some people would complain if whites, even, kids dressed up as characters of color, say, a white girl dressed up as Pocahontas.

Hmmm, no. Halloween is about being something DIFFERENT. And if you really want to go out there, go AHEAD! It's that kind of day!

If some WASPY, haha, Fratboy wants to dress up as a Hasidic Jew (I am Jewish, btw), then go ahead, haha. I won't get mad, lol. And if he's a hit with the ladies so be it. And if he's a hit with Jewish ladies, then, I'll be jealous, and might convert to Ortodoxy, haha.

When we lose the ability to make fun of each other (in good fun, mind you), we lose the opportunity to break down those walls.
 
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